@sseamom, I’ve never understood the ROI thing either. Sure, if the parents expect to be repaid (in full or even partially), or supported in their old age. Neither seems like a safe bet to me, because what if the kid flubs his job interviews with the major consulting firms, or doesn’t get into med school? But I can see the logic behind requiring a certain “return on investment” in those cases.
If the parents are providing the kid’s education without expecting to be repaid, I don’t get it. What difference does it make to the parents if the kid makes $50K per year or $350K, if the kid is productive, responsible, satisfied with a career, and reasonably happy? “I’m paying full freight for your brother to study STEM or finance somewhere, but if you want to be a teacher - well, your education just wouldn’t be worth that much to me.” Not saying that parents don’t have the right to make that decision, or pretty much any decision regarding how/how much to pay for college. I don’t understand the reasoning behind it, because I don’t see how the parent is affected by the kid’s career choice unless the parent wants/needs money back or future support from the kid.
I don’t think most people who consider ROI are worried about how much their child makes after graduation so much as how much their child’s degree ends up costing. The difference between full pay at a public university versus a private university can be upwards of $120,000. That’s money that could be spent helping your child purchase a family home or creating a college fund for future grandchildren. It’s one thing to pay more for a degree from a prestigious university when that degree will give your child a competitive advantage in his or her chosen field. But teaching elementary or high school isn’t one of those fields.
^this! There are many good state schools for education. It is not necessary to spend the 250k to get a good education, education! As far as I know, it does not give a teacher any “boost”
Well, one could make the point that it’s not necessary to spend $250K to get a good education in engineering or other STEM fields, either. Certainly there are excellent public university programs in those fields. My confusion is regarding those parents who will pay that $250K for some majors, in the expectation of a certain kind of career and a certain ROI, and not for others.
We have one kid with bachelors and masters degrees in music performance. We have a second kid with a bachelors in engineering and biology. Both went to expensive private universities for undergrad. The musician is self supporting at this point anyway. The engineering major never plans to work in that field. That kid has EMT certification which could have been gotten without a college degree…at all.
We feel both of our kids got excellent educations at their schools in their chose fields of study.
It never dawned on us NOT to support them in the major if their choice.
It’s of course up to the parents how much to pay for their child’s education-or not at all. It’s up to them whether to value some degrees above others and to buy a house for the kid instead of paying for an elite education. It’s up to them to do whatever they want. But WHY is it better to “just” go to a state school because it’s “just” elementary education, or “just” a humanities degree? Maybe the child would prefer the education vs a house? Maybe they don’t NEED a big house to be happy and would rather finance a smaller one themselves down the road? Maybe they see humanities as just as vital to the world as engineering or ibanking?
My niece would have gone to her pretty decent state college had she not been granted the great merit aid she received (she was 2nd in her class, so lots of aid). Just as my D intends to teach and to go to an OOS school, most of the options private, she has dedicated herself to getting the stats to make great merit aid possible because she doesn’t want us to spend money beyond the affordable and very good flagship right here. But though we’re not full pay by any means, we would not tell her she couldn’t major in what she likes because SHE won’t make lots of money.
The thinking that an elite education is “wasted” if you don’t bring in a big salary baffles me. And I continue to be baffled that people think education majors aren’t worthy of an elite education. Good lord, don’t we WANT more of the best and brightest and well educated people teaching our kids?? For all the complaining about how terrible schools are and how useless teachers are, why not support those who really, truly have the chops to make a difference?
@MiamiDAP -what makes you think prospects are not good for art teachers? I will freely admits there is greater overall demand for teachers in core subjects- but my school has hired several new art teachers in the last couple of years.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I’ll admit that I expected to be slapped around a little, but I do appreciate the responses. A few more thoughts of my own.
I mentioned that he has chosen this path because of a teacher he currently has. That teacher is widely adored because of his personality. Honestly, my son's personality is more like mine, and I don't see him or me as the adorable type. I absolutely love those great teachers who touch students' lives; but I also think there's something sad and pathetic about those teachers who try hard but don't connect with students. I would hate to see my son become one of those.
Currently he's leaning toward a large public out-of-state school simply because they sent him some shiny mail. If he was willing to listen to me we could have a rational conversation about the value of getting such a degree in-state. That's really what I meant by "expensive". I think he'll perceive me as being "discouraging" if I suggest anything else. I guess I hoped and assumed that he would be more engaged and motivated in his college search, but he just hasn't expressed much interest.
As far as the art-related careers, that's another big concern for me. He's honestly not that talented at art. He enjoys being "on display" and in the limelight, but art has mainly been a hobby and not a major passion. I think he sees teaching art as a path of low resistance (meaning not much work required). If he had to compete with people who were genuinely gifted and passionate about art, I don't think he would fare well.
I guess I'll finish with a question. Lots of you have mentioned that people often change their majors, and that happened with me as well. I honestly think that will happen with him as well. So where do you think is the best place for something like that to happen? Large state school? Small private? Something else? Does it matter?
Re question 4 - it just depends on you s’s other gifts and interests. My s’s interests are diverse enough that his best options are larger public universities that are strong in all 3 areas and only certain schools meet that criteria.
I wish you and your s well. It is clear you are striving to have his best interests at heart.
I suggest that you just take him to a bunch of schools, and that you just listen to him rather than try to give advice. If you are in the east, three schools with excellent art programs and great science and/or engineering are RIT, Union, and Alfred. We visited all three (D wants to study art & bio). They each could not be more different from one another, but there are excellent programs at each for a student who is not yet sure what he wants to major in.
If he’s going to major in anything with art, don’t waste your money on an expensive school. I think your son wants to be admired and loved by others, which is why he wants to be like his art teacher who he himself admires. Try and talk him out of it and see if he comes to his senses. If he truly loves art, try to persuade him into doing graphic design or some other similar, rewarding major.
" I just don’t understand why some people attach monetary support to the college and the college degree."
I actually do understand that view, especially if the parent is making significant sacrifices to make it the college dreams happen. After college is done, it would be nice to think the kid will be self supporting. It’s undrerstandable that the parent would be leery about an art education major. I don’t know a lot about the national market for art teachers, but it does seem like districts around us have been cutting back on art and music programs.
colorado-that’s why a second major isn’t a bad idea, but there are other places one can teach art besides a public school. Some private schools still have strong humanities programs, for example. My S went to an arts-based Montessori program, which had an art teacher. My older D took art classes for several years at an art museum in our hometown. It offered a whole range of art classes for kids of all ages. And it was so popular it was hard to get in.
To the OP, while you may think you know why your son wants to teach art-to be loved and admired, he may actually have had a spark lit by his teacher. My S was kind of rootless at that age and took welding just because. He really clicked with the teacher, a military vet, and ended up enlisting and going into mechanics. When he came home he got a welding certificate, and has since worked in many related fields, now owns his own company, though it’s not related to welding. You never know where a good teacher will lead a kid to go. And btw, he too, is a math a science kid-REALLY smart. I could sigh about all the good schools he did not attend, but you know what? He’s got no debt, is more than self-supporting, loves what he does, and has people working for him.
I do agree that you should have your son look at all kinds of schools-public, private, large, small. It took about two days before my D decided which she prefers, though she’s got a couple that don’t meet her preferences because she loves them anyway. But if you’re going to tour colleges, make sure you’ll willing to let him apply unless it’s just a “drive-by” visit. No point in visiting a steakhouse if all you will pay for is McDonald’s.
Would the extra cost of the out-of-state public be a significant financial hardship to you, or require him to take additional student loans? If that is the case, you need to have the money talk now (but most here would suggest not mixing up the issue of selecting a major with the money talk).
Other posts above have indicated that getting a teaching job is not necessarily easy. Obviously, a school would want an art teacher who is genuinely passionate about art and teaching.
Since you mentioned science in the first post, note that some science fields (e.g. biology, chemistry) do not have good major-specific job prospects; it would be a mistake to assume that any science major automatically has good major-specific job prospects.
Of course, many college graduates take jobs that specify a bachelor’s degree but do not require a specific major. But expect that there are lots of people applying to these jobs (basically all graduates who do not get a major-specific job could potentially apply for such jobs).
A school with a good selection of the kinds of majors he may be interested in, and where those majors are not restricted admission (i.e. not so popular relative to capacity that they need a very high GPA or competitive admission process for undeclared students at the school to enter) would be best for this purpose. A medium to large school may have a wider variety of strong departments, though a small school may fulfill this criterion if the possible majors of interest happen to align that that school’s strengths.
Some majors with long sequences of prerequisites do need the student to start early (in frosh year) in order to keep the door open for those majors if he wants to graduate on time.
Private schools, although pricey, provide greater flexibility in changing majors and some offer great merit. Larger ones will have more variety of majors. If public, make sure they aren’t impacted, where changing majors or even getting in the major is too much of a struggle or can add year(s) to graduation time (e.g., many CA public schools).
A future teacher must have a Grad. degree. There is no advancement without it.
So, the expensive UG may put such a person at the level of loans that he will never be able to pay off. That will put his entire life under jeopardy of never be able to obtain other loans (mortgage?) at favorable rate. We are talking about a teacher here, even many MDs are not paid off in their 40s. 50s…
Future high school teachers do not need advanced degrees to teach art. Here are the basic requirements http://study.com/articles/High_School_Art_Teacher_Job_Description_and_Education_Requirements.html Many are not interested in “advancement” such as going into administration or whatever, and a bachelors degree is sufficient. If they want to take additional coursework or pursue an advanced degree, some can do that on line , with the support of their school system, during a summer program or sabbatical. It is not likely to be terribly costly. Not at all like the cost of medical school. And the OP did not mention the need to take out any loans to pay for UG, so that is irrelevant.
I would ask your son to do a bit of research on the careers of art teachers. There is plenty of information available on line.
Ask him to look at starting salary, median salary, salary bumps with an advanced degree etc.
Have him look at post secondary teachers and requirements to work these jobs.
Have him determine the career projections of art teachers in general. How many go into other careers, go into administration etc.
Lastly, ask him to talk with his art teacher and see if he can job shadow an art teacher.
This research should not take long. A few hours on line. Shadowing an art teacher can be done in just a few days.
This is a great exercise for all high school students.
Sometime this year sit down with him and show him how to create a household budget. Show him how much of a $30,000 salary people get to keep after taxes
Work this into the budget.
Again it does not take long but can be quite an eye opener.
Good luck.
I started out in art school for fine arts. It was awesome. I transferred out after the first two quarters.