Hello - will really appreciate insights if you have evaluated/experienced either. D got accepted (RD) at several, but zooming in on these two, primarily based on the quality of these programs. UC Davis will be in-state for us.
Academic program quality and overall experience has priority
Smith will stretch our budget but willing to support if the program quality and on-campus experience are stellar
On the other hand, if UC Davis offers a comparable program quality, having D stay close to home will be a huge plus for us
Small class size is a nice-to-have (not a deal breaker)
I think that “program quality” and “on campus” experience are personal.
Stretching the budget (and it’s often more than you think) is never a good thing. Think about your retirement and lifestyle. You’ll have travel and more - including potentially spring break trips, etc.
The major likely requires grad school (it’s not a high paying major in general) so that should be another “assumption” - it’s not necessarily just four years.
Davis shows a 21 to 1 Faculty to class size in the CDS. They don’t list the #s by class size (like % over 100% like other schools. Smith shows 8:1 - although that doesn’t give you a size by major - but yes, I’d assume it’s smaller.
These are the organizations Smith grads went - they say Env Science and Policy - which is not just science - so you can see likely low paid (although they don’t share salaries) and not a lot of grads.
Good luck.
Appalachian Mountain Club
1
Bank of America
1
County of Santa Barbara
1
ECHO, Leahy Center for Lake Champlain
1
Kofu City Board of Education
1
Los Angeles County Office of Education
1
Oceana, Inc.
1
Starlet Vanity
1
University of Maine
1
University of Massachusetts Boston
1
Williams-Mystic Coastal and Ocean Studies Program
1
Me - in your case, I’d choose Davis - but I’m also a fan of not overstretching.
Env Sci and Policy is unfair to group together. One is science. One is more Poli Sci.
So not sure why they do that. You might check into the program. Is it even robust for her specific needs? I see it is combined at the major level there.
My D is weighing UCD for Marine Science, and one of the main appeals is the Bodega Bay research center. She is very interested in marine mammals. Not sure if your D is focused on fieldwork but that may be a consideration.
They do this so that trained scientists are involved in environmental policy-making. They are grouped together at many colleges and universities.
Yes - but typically (like UCD) there are two majors - that’s what I meant by that.
Environmental Policy Analysis and Planning
Environmental Science and Management
But maybe combined into one like at Smith is good. Or is a sign of less heft? I don’t know. UCD has an entire environmental school with even more majors.
I wish OP well - two great schools but I get scared by the outcomes in the major (neither lists salaries but the organizations would seem low paying) - and then by they noted potential financial strain.
Looking forward to seeing the final outcome, whatever is decided.
I feel strongly both ways on this one. Generally I agree with the idea of going with the more fiscally responsible decision. OTIH, but the academics at Smith are in fact stellar and that Smith alumnae network is awesome.
Fewer broad majors versus more numerous focused majors is not something where one is inherently better than the other. Better to check the majors and course offerings at each school to see how they match up to the student’s likely interests.
How big a stretch of the budget would it be?
College Scorecard median pay levels:
School
Major
Pay level
Notes
Smith
Natural Resources Conservation and Research
$42,367
UCD
Natural Resources Conservation and Research
$74,836
probably Environmental Science and Management
UCD
Natural Resources and Conservation, Other
$50,567
probably Environmental Policy Analysis and Planning
I was going to mention the same thing about Smith. The academics are amazing and you cannot beat the alumnae network.
To the OP:
Intro classes may be a little large at Smith, but most have breakout sessions/discussions that make them feel smaller. Once you are out of those intro classes, nice, small classes are the norm.
Have you done a deep dive into the major at Smith? I think the Environmental Science major can take two different paths… one is more biological and the other more geological. Might be worth a look at the catalog to see what classes are offered in both areas.
I guess the question is how much of a stretch would Smith be? Have you called the financial aid folks to see if they can better their offer?
I’d like to offer some additional thoughts on this difficult decision.
With regard to Smith, it is a truly superb academic institution. One of the things that makes it special is the fact that it is one of only about a dozen or so colleges in the country that has a truly open curriculum. There are no required courses with the single exception of an intensive writing seminar in freshman year. This means that students don’t simply show up for a predetermined set of core classes to check them off as completed. Every course is chosen thoughtfully and only after a student reflects on her goals and aspirations with the help of her advisor to advance her learning and development. This is a truly special way to experience higher education. In utilizing the open curriculum approach, Smith students have available the additional resources and course selection of the other 4 colleges in the 5 college consortium. Just to note that there are of course required courses within the major once that has been selected.
With regard to UC Davis, it is an excellent research university. What it has going for it for a student interested in environmental science is its location. California is ground zero for the climate crisis, so there is an urgency to solve the various problems created by climate change - changing weather patterns, drought and water shortage, wild fires, overpopulation straining resources, etc. in addition, Davis is located just outside the capital of the most populous state in the country, thereby providing easy access to state government and its policy making apparatus. This location of a truly excellent research university makes it a special opportunity to learn about environmental science.
These are two vastly different institutions of higher learning, making it a difficult choice.
Those pay levels and the financial strain are what scares me and points me to Davis.
The nice alum network doesn’t pay your bills. The field is traditionally low paying and given our new governmental direction, may have less opportunity going forward.
I was counseling a UT Chatt student in the major and opportunities were extremely low paid. And from an ROI POV and only from that POV (and the family’s finances) would I have hesitation with Smith.
UCD is located in a great college town. I’m an alumn and still visit every couple of months 30 years later. There are also many advantages to attending a large R-1 university as an undergrad. It’s very possible your daughter will change her focus or even her major and UCD will have breadth and depth of classes that a tiny school like Smith can’t possibly offer. Instate tuition gives her flexibility to apply to internships and summer programs as well (yes internships are paid, but housing costs can exceed salary in our expensive state), and to help conserve funds for grad school if desired. It’s also nice to be able to come home for Thanksgiving or Spring Break or even for a weekend. I have a junior on the opposite coast who mostly has come home only at semester breaks because of expense, weather and time constraints. Smith has a fine reputation, but I have known people who outgrew small schools socially after a couple of years. These two schools are so different. I wonder if your daughter has visited and what her impressions were?
My older son was an ESM major and a graduate from UC Davis. He got a great academic education however, entry level jobs are low paying until you build up years of experience and possibly a graduate degree. He has been working in the industry for 7 years starting off with fisheries and mainly with State Fish and Wildlife agencies in Utah, Washington and California. He loved his work especially being out in the field but to advance at the state level it is all about Longevity/Seniority even though you may be the better worker for the job. He eventually went into the Private sector and works for an Environmental Consulting firm in Sacramento with better pay, still some hands-on field work but also works heavily with Environmental policy.
UC Davis gave him a wonderful education, exposure to Research and Internship opportunities but it is not a well paying field when starting off and he found you need to be willing to start at the bottom and develop your job skills over time. He was lucky since we are CA residents, full pay and he did not come out of Undergraduate with any debt so he had the freedom to take low paying but interesting jobs to enhance his resume.
I know nothing about Smith but depending upon what your D wants to do with her degree, having the flexibility with no debt was important for him. Lower division Pre-req courses are always large lectures but have smaller discussion groups with 20-30 students. The upper divisions ESM courses usually have no more than 20-40 students. He was able to do Research with his Environmental Conservation professor Junior year and Salmon research with his Fisheries professor Senior year (both offered him the position). UC Davis requires some Internship credits as part of the program. They can be from off-campus positions or on-campus positions. The UCD arboretum is a common place for students to get some of the internship credit.
As with any larger university, the student does need to advocate for themselves, you get what you put in. The ESM department was very responsive by posting internships and jobs for the students throughout the year.
We feel so very grateful for the time and effort you all have put in your thoughtful responses. We definitely feel more informed! A couple of quick follow-ups:
We have not visited either campus yet. We plan to visit UCD in early April. Smith will require a bit more planning
D wants to keep her mind open regarding what she wants to focus on within ESM (and we are perfectly okay with that). To that point, having a wider array of choices and the supporting research framework of UCD sounds appealing
It’s very valuable to know employment choices and income bracket in ESM from real life experience. It does appear that we should put together funds to support her if needed for at least the next 5-7 years
It’s clear that Smith offers a very unique, close-knit experience. Temperamentally, I think an atmosphere like that suits our D better. But OTOH she’s grown up in the CA south bay public school system, and has adapted to larger sized classes.
Hopefully someone out here could share their experience of graduating from Smith with ESM and how did that experience help them shape their career path
The experience at Smith will have significant differences with that at UCD.
First, because it’s a women’s college, so it’s dedicated to empowering women in the sciences and building resiliency - with so many giving up along the way, it’s really valuable.
Second, it’s part of the Seven Sisters, so the alumnae network is extensive, dedicated, and powerful - it makes a big difference for internships and jobs.
Third, because it’s a school with money, all sorts of extra costs are covered - in particular, in case of a low pay summer internship, the college provides money for rent/food.
This is not to say UCD is bad - in fact, it’s just as strong academically even for undergrads, the location is good, students are happy, and Environmental sciences is one of its strengths.
However, it’d be fudging things quite a bit to consider them similar experiences.
Is the difference “worth it”? Only your family can determine that - probably after attending admitted student days.
It also depends on what you mean by “stretching”: do you mean “weekly dinners at our favorite restaurants become monthly occurrences and that family trip to Italy will have to wait a couple more years” or “let’s really really hope the furnace doesn’t break down because there’s no money to fix it” - you don’t have to reply but the feasibility of the first form of “stretching” makes Smith reasonable but the second one, probably not.
If I had the money I would consider investing in my kid’s education the best kind of investment but I wouldn’t take parental loans for that.