Something to think about: I recently saw a video of a presentation done by a college admissions expert on how Asians can better stand out in the admissions game, and one of the things she said, if my memory serves me correctly, was that achieving perfect test scores and perfect GPA could present them as “robotic.” Although the presentation was for Asian audience, her remarks led me to think – given how many students I’ve heard of with perfect scores and GPA are being routinely rejected by top schools – whether the implication can be extended to all ethnic background, namely, there’s an unspoken “stigma” with those “perfect” candidates that leaves AO’s cautious and unwilling to take a chance on them unless there are accompanying exceptional essays and LOR’s that strongly counter such “robotic appearances.”
Nah. Some “experts” know how fear sells, drums up business. And what side their bread is buttered on. (Nothing against the good ones. But so many have no college inside experience. Or their experience is decades past.)
We’ve spent a lot of time on some CC threads worrying about the word “robotic.” (And stereotyping- some who really don’t know even advise Asian Am kids to not disclose tennis or violin. That’s silly.) An accomplished kid is great. It’s just that those accomplishments alone aren’t what it takes. “Perfect” is more than stats and rigor.
This isn’t an “ethnic” issue.
Don’t fall for this kind of stuff.
@exlibris97 So, at the IVY where you were on the adcom, all other things being equal, they saw no difference between a kid with a 2160 and a kid with a 2370? Also, no difference between a 2400 one-and-done as opposed to a kid who took the SAT 4 times and super scored?
Naviance data from son’s HS shows an extremely high difference in IVY results between a 2160 and a 2370…
SAT scores are evaluated against race, gender, family context, so you can’t just say compare two scores, unless you mean that those things are also constant. In that case, I can also tell you that my experience shows 2370 is getting in to more top schools than the 2160. A 2160 is like what 10-11 wrong, a 2370 is one wrong. I’m not saying the 2370 is getting in everywhere…though.
My URM DD just completed junior year at Penn. She was accepted with a 4.7 (wtd) GPA, 2150 SAT and 32 ACT, plus 2 subject test with scores over 700. She has thrived there, amongst an incredibly diverse, highly intelligent community. When walking through campus you see a vibrant racially diverse community, wth a student body that is passionate, engaged and immersed in activities. She is part of a volunteer/mentoring group in inner city schools, a dance group, a theater group, and politics, plus works at the Kelly Writer’s House. Everyone there has an infectious passion and personality that simply grabs you - THAT is what they are looking for. That “it” factor, something that stands out - not perfect scores. Her essay BTW was about drinking tea with her father.
Also, no professional test prep, just Princeton Review books at home. Plus leadership positions - president of NHS, captain of cheer squad, multiple leads in plays, started her own tutoring company, worked at Goodwill because it mattered. Right now she is interning for a congressman in DC over the summer, and will spend fall semester abroad in Singapore. They want students who DO things, not simply score on tests.
@theloniusmonk “A 2160 is like what 10-11 wrong, a 2370 is one wrong. I’m not saying the 2370 is getting in everywhere…though.”
I went back and looked at DD’s SAT results and she got 11 wrong total on her best performance. It seems like 11 wrong (on a 3.5 hour test) may have kept her out of some schools (she was rejected or wait-listed by 9 schools and her applications looked pretty solid (perfect grades, interesting ECs and summer jobs). Doesn’t really seem fair or equitable does it? It seems that her real fault was being born 5 years too late as London private school kids are no longer interesting enough for top schools.
@foobar1 - Brown’s statistic of accepting only 28% percent of students with perfect ACT scores really moderated my expectations for D’s chances of getting into highly selective universities. After seeing all of D’s results, I believe that statistic can also be viewed from the yield management point of view that Brown may waitlist/deny the perfect score students because Brown feels they will be accepted into HYPSM and not attend Brown.
Because of the exponential growth in international applicants, I am not convinced that it is harder to get into an Ivy now than it was 10 or 20 years ago. I would love to see the numbers broken down between domestic and international applicants.
@londondad: About Brits not bothering to apply to American colleges outside the Ivies even though the educational system may be a better fit for them than the British systems:
One thing is that most people just aren’t very aware of colleges on other continents outside the very top. Almost all Americans would know of Oxbridge. Many of LSE, and some of Imperial/Edinburgh/St. A’s. Not much knowledge (outside of academia and global prestige industries) of the rest.
Another is that they may not appreciate not only the plethora and diversity of higher ed in the US but also that our private elite unis have smaller undergraduate student bodies. With the US having 5 times the population of the UK and our privates typically smaller (and of course the LACs are tiny), as a proportion of the population, all 30 schools I have as Ivy-equivalents (http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1893105-ivy-equivalents-ranking-based-on-alumni-outcomes-take-2-1-p1.html) offer as many slots as just both of Oxbridge.
And while the range in the UK from Oxbridge to KCL encompasses about 10 unis, a similar range in the US would include about 40 research U’s and 50 LAC’s.
BTW, UMich (as well as some other unis and LACs) are pretty generous about granting credit for A-Levels (and you don’t even need high scores). So if someone who went through an A-Level system wanted to graduate from college in 3 years in the US, they likely could.
^ Thanks. Good point on the A-Level credits. I was not aware of that until my son registered for class at Miami. Hos school gives between 6 and 10 credits for each A2 result (the higher credits are for STEM subjects), and he received 24 credits for 3 A2’s and 1 AS.
@encadyma I did Student Government in 10th&12th grade. I am also part of HOBY which is a service-oriented leadership program. If you have any more questions, lmk!!
“Just try your best in school, learn for the sake of gaining new and exiting knowledge, and cross your fingers. At the end of the day, colleges are a business and do not guarantee a successful life. You do that yourself”
- this bears repeating, so I did.
I am a parent, closing in on retirement age, and I can tell you that in the real world going to a big name school might open some doors for you, but it does not guarantee success. That is an American Dream Myth.
Also, don’t expect life to be fair, it is not.
One day you may find yourself in your 50’s , in a high position with great pay and great benefits, only to be laid off . too young to afford retirement but too old (and expensive) to hire or retrain. didn’t happen to me, but I’ve seen it happen a lot.
On the other hand, you may also find yourself in your 50’s and starting a new career by choice.
don’t paint yourself into a corner and try to be flexible. be nice to everyone you meet on your way up the ladder. pursue what you love, not just what you think will sound good.
find a school where you can thrive, not just survive.
and most importantly, have a great life!
Brown does disclose in the “Common Data Set” that academics are of the highest importance in their admission process (CDS C7). However, “Talent” and “Personal Qualities” are of equal importance. I think talent means ability at the regional, national or international level. Not just the best at an individual high school.
I only had half of these things and I was accepted into multiple ivy league schools.
i don’t know I had a weighted 4.4 in high school and got rejected to every single ivy with a 30 on my ACT. I also took 7 ap courses and got at least 4s on the exams
@swaggyb22 I got into two ivies with a 4.3, a 32 ACT, and 3s on most AP exams. You can’t really depend on numbers in college admissions.
Any HYP-C athletes out there from a niche sport (ie squash, golf, fencing, archery, etc) who were recruited by coach, but either got rejected or accepted by the admin com? What were the academics stats that got them admitted or rejected?
Just attended one. I think most of us know that the excessive mailing and these “tours” are just there to get their rejection rates up. The more they reject the higher they are ranked.
I didn’t feel it was a waste though, because my son was able to learn about different curriculum’s and how the housing and campus is like.
No one is a shoe in when the acceptance rates are 6-7 %.
BTW congrats on Cal …great school !
Here’s a nice take on Ivy League admissions: https://mathwithbaddrawings.com/2015/09/30/why-ive-stopped-doing-interviews-for-yale/
Loved that article, @CIEE83 and the link in it to another.
Not sure if this post will even get read as there hasn’t been much activity. I’d like to comment about on the question of the thread, “What it really takes to get into an Ivy…”.
Much to my surprise, my daughter got into Dartmouth this year. I realize that Dartmouth was the second easiest Ivy to get in, but still extremely difficult during the RD phase (around 8%). It was one of the biggest honors of her life (yet she will not be attending…she truly loved the school but really wants to be near a city and will be attending Georgetown).
I do some college advising and have been very involved in the application process with both the above mentioned daughter and her older sister. So I am not a complete novice in college admissions.
I warned my current senior (unhooked white girl from NJ) that got in to Dartmouth that she would not get in to any ivies, especially since she was only applying RD. I didn’t want her to waste an ED or EA shot somewhere she truly had a shot just to be rejected or deferred. It was ultimately her decision, but I have to be honest. I definitely discouraged her. I didn’t feel that badly about it because honestly, getting into an Ivy has not been that big of a deal for her and after touring a million schools, none of them prevailed as her top, top choice. (At one point she considered ED to Penn and ED to Dartmouth, but changed her mind.) She ended up applying to Penn and Dartmouth because she really liked them but also in part because she is Valedictorian and felt she owed it to herself just to try and see what happened. And she gave the applications her all.
For various reasons, she ended up spending a lot of time on her Penn essay (she had read a book by a Penn grad, sat in on classes, etc. because at one point Penn was her top choice but then changed her mind after spending a lot of time there. It was easier to visit Penn because we live closer). Her Penn essay (which we thought was amazing) was entirely her own work, but she definitely got the most input on it and revised it multiple times. When it came time for her Dartmouth essays, she did them quite quickly (but well) and asked for no feedback at all. She just hit send.
Outright rejected by Penn and accepted by Dartmouth.
Penn was a little harder than Dartmouth this year, but their stats are similar. And it really is impossible to say why one school liked her more than the other as it is such a subjective process (she had the stats for both so I’m assuming the decisions were made on the more subjective components of her application).
I just thought I would share this story. I often wonder if the reason she got in to Dartmouth had anything to do with the fact that her essays for them were so much less “worked”. Probably came across more genuine. Who knows but I thought I would chime in. In the end it was very hard to say no to Dartmouth because it really is a great place. And she knows how lucky she was to get that acceptance.