High school grad rates are below 50% at 17 of the nation's largest cities

Parent Cafe
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<p>“Sorry, but the cost to society is more than made up by the impact dropouts have on depressing wages for everyone, their lack of demand for living wages or health care benefits, their low life expectancy and hence lack of demand upon Social Security and Medicare, and the positive impacts prison construction, prison employment, and prison industries have on entire communities.”</p>

<p>I thought that was the impact of illegal aliens. I read an interesting number on the cost of educating illegal immigrant children. Large.</p>

<p>My daughter is in an IB program in an inner city school. It’s true that the IB kids have a vastly different circumstance, but the principal is absolutely heroic in my opinion. She has begged and cajoled for serious grant money that pays for, among other things, SAT prep for every student in the school and she requires its completion. Many of the teachers were students in the school themselves and are incredibly devoted to the kids and the principal. The number of tutoring sessions available every single day is astounding. ONe of the teachers owns a prep business and created a prep program for every regents held on Saturdays for free. The kids do show up and it’s not just the IB kids, either. The school is run in a program of smaller “houses” with separate guidance counselors for each house. It works very, very well. My personal theory is that this incrediby dynamic principal who is so invested in her kids is bringing everyone along with her and the NYCDOE leaves her alone to do the best she can. Is it perfect? No, there is still gang activity, dropping out and crime, but the tools to succeed are there in this school and the personalized attention to help as many of those kids succeed as possible. This particular school has a huge population of refugees from the Liberian civil war and its attendant difficulties (amputations), but we deal.</p>

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<p>jhs, I’m sorry someone asked to bring the post back on track and I think I did. I asked the question about those who would choose not to educate themselves. A teacher cannot “make” a student who doesn’t want to participate or attend do those things no matter what pay structure you insist will cure kids skipping school. </p>

<p>It may very well be you that is clinging to the “cure alls”, not me. If you read my post I did account for those who might step back into the system, but many 15-20% would still choose not to. They aren’t interested. </p>

<p>Your solutions simply aren’t solving the real problem of a lack of parenting in our country. You’re kicking the dog for the cat wizzing in your shoes… ;)</p>

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<p>I dont see kids choosing not to be educated.
I see kids who are not prepared to move on, and immaturity and pride contribute to an uncaring attitude- but from my pov, they care very much, but they dont know how to bridge the gap by themselves.</p>

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<p>“We cannot force a parent to care about their kid cutting classes or failing their education.
Truancy is against the law- and schools must contact parents and formulate a plan of action with missed absences”</p>

<p>Em, lots of things are against the law and yet we still break them, don’t we?</p>

<p>I’ll give you a recent situation of “there”, but absent. </p>

<p>A third grader simply refused to do any classwork for pretty much an entire year. He gets help everyday from the school physcologist and is repeating third grade and still refuses to do any work. His mom has moved him from school to school within the district, threatened lawsuits several times and is extremely difficult to accept any problems with the child. And no, his name isn’t Eric Cartman. </p>

<p>This is a real kid who may very well be a 16 or 17 year old third grader someday. He just simply refuses to do anything, take away recess, fine no worries. You can’t deny him lunch. Field trips aren’t an issue anymore because of budgets. So he can pretty much sit there, he’s not truant, but he refuses to learn. What legal recourse does a school system have in a case like that? </p>

<p>If a district does apply pressure in many cases the kid becomes “homeschooled” (wink wink nudge nudge) I think the same WA study on dropouts have the homeschooled (or those technically defined as homeschooled) as a higher drop out rate then the school system. </p>

<p>Sure there are parents who have homeschooled extremely bright kids, but there are also kids who are homeschooled because mommy doesn’t get up to get them off to school in the morning. This gets the SD off their backs about attendence. These are the free range kids that I see more and more of. </p>

<p>A person has a right not to be educated and some work very hard to maintain that right.</p>

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<p>and how many of the 2 million plus in our prisons are high school drop outs.</p>

<p>I bet it’s a really high number</p>

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<p>“I dont see kids choosing not to be educated.”</p>

<p>Did I say all of them? Looking at the state’s database you can account for your examples. It’s just not all of the dropouts. Some fit the mold you describe spot on. Would you say there aren’t currently programs that these kids can migrate to, when they are ready? Doesn’t Seattle have some alternative schools to attempt to give these kids a second chance? Most districs do. Maybe Seattle doesn’t? </p>

<p>Wouldn’t our district committing one on one specialist and physcologist time to this 3rd grader consitute trying? What happens when the kid goes home? Everyday the kid goes home, it’s like taking two steps back. </p>

<p>There are alot of parents out there who live on the corner of enableler and codependent street. </p>

<p>Again, I ask would any parent here given notice of their kid cutting classes, not put your foot squarely up your kids backside? </p>

<p>Now imagine if you didn’t care enough to confront your kid? Or you were scared of your kid? or had your own issues of life to deal with? </p>

<p>We tend to think every parent is alot like us. The truth is, they aren’t.</p>

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<p>[Education</a> | Northshore administrators enjoy perks | Seattle Times Newspaper](<a href=“http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2004321668_perks02e.html]Education”>http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/education/2004321668_perks02e.html)</p>

<p>I get to go back a bit off topic again… this article is for those who always believe the union is at fault for education problems.</p>

<p>As I said “little power”</p>

<p>"Administrators in the Northshore School District have bought big-screen TVs, camcorders, home-theater equipment and iPods for personal use, all with taxpayer money. What’s more, if the employees leave the district, they get to keep the equipment.</p>

<p>There’s nothing illegal about it. A contract provision makes the purchases part of the compensation package for about 90 top district administrators.</p>

<p>But with the district in the midst of a controversial proposal to cut $3.4 million from the 2008-09 budget, the purchase of $1,800 HDTVs, a $1,200 digital camera, GPS systems and even a $218 digital picture frame strikes some as questionable.</p>

<p>“To buy things for purely personal use out of taxpayer money, that’s what outraged us,” said Donna Lurie, who represents the Northshore Education Office Professionals Association, which represents support staff in the district.</p>

<p>The deal allows top managers and supervisors $1,800 over three years to purchase personal technology for home use and be reimbursed with district money. The purchases do not have to be job-related.</p>

<p>Other districts, including Seattle, Bellevue and Lake Washington, have agreements with their administrators associations that provide for the purchase of personal technology. But those districts limit purchases to job-related items and specify that the equipment belongs to the district.</p>

<p>The issue in Northshore was raised last week at a standing-room-only School Board hearing on the proposed budget cuts. Tim Brittell, president of the Northshore teachers union, asked how administrators could justify buying expensive electronics at the same time they were trying to cut costs.</p>

<p>“This is unacceptable, and this practice must stop now,” Brittell told the board, which approves all labor contracts.</p>

<p>Brittell and Lurie said members had complained about administrators’ use of the benefit and the union requested a copy of the reimbursement records from the district. The Seattle Times also requested a copy under the state’s public-records law.</p>

<p>Northshore administrators, whose salaries average $103,000 per year, say they work long hours without extra pay and that principals in the district have received a similar benefit for many years. Saying it would help attract top candidates and keep salary packages competitive, the Northshore Non-Represented Administrative Personnel (NNRAP) negotiated with the district to add the personal-technology benefit, originally $1,500, to the contract that took effect in 2003.</p>

<p>“A lot of perks get bargained over the years. Nobody is lining up to give things back,” said Jeff Sherwood, Northshore director of human resources.</p>

<p>School Board President Cathy Swanson said she was unaware of what had been purchased under the benefit until she was briefed by the teachers union last week. The benefit isn’t unreasonable, she said, but the district needs to clarify the language to ensure that purchases are job-related.</p>

<p>“Does it look bad? Yes,” she said.</p>

<p>The contract language defines eligible equipment as “computers, computer-related electronic devices, equipment computer-controlled or attached to home automation systems.”</p>

<p>And it says the purchases shall be “for the employee’s personal use which will add to the abilities, skills and job-related interests of the employee.”</p>

<p>All but 13 of the eligible 93 administrators have taken advantage of the benefit under the current contract, which runs through June 2009, spending a total of $119,000 to date. Because the purchases are treated as salary, employees pay federal payroll taxes on them.</p>

<p>Dick Anastasi, the executive director of business services, and Laurie Ferwerda, executive director of human resources, both bought high-definition TVs with their allowances.</p>

<p>Anastasi said the monitor, for which he was reimbursed $1,800, can be hooked up to a computer and used for work.</p>

<p>“It’s part of our compensation package,” he said. “It was added to our contract as an incentive to keep employees current on technology.”</p>

<p>Ferwerda, who received a $1,438 reimbursement for a TV monitor she purchased from Costco, said she has used it to read work materials including labor contracts.</p>

<p>“We could have been given a raise instead of this benefit, and perhaps, in hindsight, we should have been,” she said.</p>

<p>Representatives of the district labor unions question whether there was adequate district oversight of the administrators’ contract. Some of the administrators who negotiated the contract also benefited from the technology provision.</p>

<p>Several administrators said they viewed the benefit as part of their salary.</p>

<p>John Bond, an assistant superintendent for elementary education, bought an iPod at Costco and an adapter for his car at Bavarian Autosport for a total of $530. He also bought a digital camera for $1,268 at Best Buy.</p>

<p>Lydia Sellie, the finance director, spent $630 on a camcorder and an iPod Nano.</p>

<p>Asked if she had any qualms about spending $500 in public money for a digital camera, Accounting Director Holly Burlingame said, “no more than someone who bought a case of wine with their salary.”</p>

<p>Some administrators used their personal-technology benefit just months before retiring or leaving the district, according to district records.</p>

<p>In the Bellevue School District, administrators are reimbursed up to $1,000 annually for personal technology, said Spencer Welch, human-resources director. But administrators must demonstrate a job-related use, and the purchases must be approved by a supervisor.</p>

<p>“I don’t know of any television purchases,” Welch said. Purchases remain the property of the district, except for computer hardware, which employees may keep for personal use after one year because it becomes obsolete, he said.</p>

<p>The Lake Washington School District has an approved list of technology purchases and negotiates prices with vendors to control expenses, said Shannon Parthemer, district spokeswoman. Approved items include digital cameras, camcorders, printers, fax machines, overhead projectors and document cameras. Computer monitors can also be purchased, but none on the approved list costs more than $309.</p>

<p>She said all personal-technology purchases must be compatible with the district’s technology and remain the property of the district.</p>

<p>Some administrators in Seattle are part of the Principals Association of Seattle Schools, whose members receive $1,500 for technology purchases, training and travel over their three-year contract. The items remain district property, said David Tucker, district spokesman."</p>

<p>Yup it’s always the union… ;)</p>

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<p>“We could have been given a raise instead of this benefit, and perhaps, in hindsight, we should have been,” she said.</p>

<p>But we never thought anyone would find out… wink wink</p>

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<p>Thanks, Barneyfife2008 (whom I imagine as Don Knotts). I was trying to hit that point earlier, too. </p>

<p>People write about how unions protect teachers’ hides, which they do, but the untold story is how often the teachers unions are speaking up on behalf of other wrongs or abuses in the system. Whether it’s padding a nest of administrators’ home technology (which can relate to their work, of course), or making sure there is proper front door security on the building, the teachers are on the scene to observe. They bring the situations to union representatives. With a union in place, it is POSSIBLE to pursue grievances such as described above without a whistle-blowing teacher fearing loss of job or demotion. </p>

<p>I am always amused when parents begrudge teachers the right to “run out of the building” on time, according to their contract. Next time, notice if they’re running with a tote bag full of books and papers to handle that evening. Of course they are. Some are picking up their own kids to get to afterschool programs, just as you are doing. Then they resume schoolwork around 8 p.m. after their kids are in bed. </p>

<p>Do you also leave your workplace at 5:00 p.m. if those are your hours? DOes that mean you do not return to your briefcase later in the evening if you are a professional? Of course you do; of course teachers do, too. If we weren’t prepared for the next day, the kids would eat us for lunch.</p>

<p>Classroom hours are in teacher contracts (collective bargaining agreements) stated to the minute. My actual contract day ended at “3:17 p.m.” daily because that was 4 minutes after the busses left. Younger teachers tore out of there at 3:18 to get to their own kids’ busses, while others stayed on until 5 or 6 p.m. Others went home at 4:00 to take a two-hour pause for dinner and to eat with a spouse, then resume school-related work in the evening. Some teachers prefer to arrive at 7 a.m. (with schools that start at 9 a.m.) and prepare while the custodians are setting up for the day. </p>

<p>Think of this next time you say you saw a teacher “running for the door” as soon as school ended. You don’t know the rest of his/her day and evening. </p>

<p>In the above-cited article, it was the teachers unions who helicoptered the administration (when school board missed it) and made sure, on a larger level, that tax money wasn’t wasted. </p>

<p>School problems are complex, obviously. When one brings up any one issue, such as h.s. dropout rates, it will dip into discussion of every other issue, because a school is an organism with many dimensions. It is fairly useless to seize uipon any one reform as “the” answer, be it charter schools, vouchers, or early literacy. </p>

<p>Try to think in 3 dimensions, and also consider research about what actually works to improve student performance (such as early literacy initiatives). Don’t grasp onto what sounds easy, based upon political ideology (such as vouchers or charters). Try them, sure, but don’t assume they will solve more than they create newer problems, such as charter schools causing a revolving-door of young teachers hired outside the unions, who leave because of poor mentoring and administrative harassment when they object to…anything. </p>

<p>Going back a few posts, Midmo, I did propose solutions in that I reintroduced the attention to early literacy education to help address the h.s. drop-out rate. That at least has the benefit of research behind it. Many solutions will be needed, and I wouldn’t even hang my hat only upon early literacy although I think it’s crucial. Fixing schools is as complex as the people and families who attend them. I just caution people not to grab at what sounds like easy solutions, that’s all.</p>

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<p>“I thought that was the impact of illegal aliens. I read an interesting number on the cost of educating illegal immigrant children. Large.”</p>

<p>There are very, very, very few “illegal immigrant children”. There are American citizen children who are the sons and daughters of undocumented immigrants. They are no less citizens than your children are.</p>

<p>“and how many of the 2 million plus in our prisons are high school drop outs.”</p>

<p>They may not be drop outs at all, but “school leavers”. Different category. Anyway, prisons are a major economic plus for the economy.</p>

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<p>Aren’t you contributing to the … problem? In the eyes of some, homeschoolers represent a threat to education. A few years ago, J.C. Penney started selling a T shirt that wickedly crystallized many people’s assumptions about the movement: HOME SKOOLED, giggles the shirt, which also depicts a trailer home. This led to several articles such as:</p>

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<p>So, Mini, do you agree that home schooling is a social threat to public education, as the ever so eloquent and unbiased Chris Lubienski stated? If the system is working as planned, why do parents opt to leave it behind and throw their children into the jaws of an uncertain future, and this all the while robbing the public education systems of your money which is also … rightfully theirs.</p>

<p>As we know, Madame Albright is known for being able to ascertain a “fair price to pay.” Is there a fair price for the freedom of choice in education?</p>

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<p>“There are very, very, very few “illegal immigrant children”. There are American citizen children who are the sons and daughters of undocumented immigrants. They are no less citizens than your children are.”</p>

<p>I think there are likely more than a very few.</p>

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<p>So, Mini, do you agree that home schooling is a social threat to public education, as the ever so eloquent and unbiased Chris Lubienski stated?</p>

<p>– Actually, I think just the opposite. I think the threat is simply a whiff of competition, and if public ed. wants to compete, they have to step up to the plate. That’s what “free market competition” is all about. :wink: And yes, on the whole, I think homeschooling produces “better citizens”, but when a homeschooling family screws up (they do on occasion), they screw up only one family, not an entire generation. But, it is true, we produce less than our share of Wal-Mart clerks, burger flippers, and schoolteachers, so maybe we aren’t producing “better citizens”. </p>

<p>“If the system is working as planned, why do parents opt to leave it behind and throw their children into the jaws of an uncertain future, and this all the while robbing the public education systems of your money which is also … rightfully theirs.”</p>

<p>The reality is that, relative to the system as a whole, not that many opt out, the future is not so uncertain (you should see what is going on on the “homeschool-to-college” list I am on), and that, since in aggregate, school budgets do NOT decline when homeschoolers exit, the schools actually have more money per child. (Same thing happens with "school leavers’, who don’t cost the school system a penny.)</p>

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<p>Mini, considering everything you shared about the “Bubble Queen’s” route from homeschooling to Princeton, I’m sure you noticed the degree of sarcasm in my line about an “uncertain future.” </p>

<p>The same applies to the “public interest” position that private schools and homeschooling families are taxing public education, and especially the ability of administrators to raise more funds.</p>

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<p>The Business Roundtable views schools as big, potential profit centers (as do real estate developers, who like prisons, too) - so the more funds raised for them, the better. </p>

<p>Having “school leavers” is part of the success story.</p>

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<p>^^mini, you hit the nail on the head! Anyone born within the US borders is a citizen, no matter how illegal or legal his/her parents are.</p>

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<p>“There are very, very, very few “illegal immigrant children”.”</p>

<p>What? There are, and I’m going to use a technical term here, lots of them. My sister spent five years in New York trying to help them. It is very common for undocumented families to bring small children with them (frequently by overstaying tourist visas). The kids grow up in the U.S., often speaking English, and have little connection to the home country. They had no control over how they were brought here, yet when they reach adulthood, they can be deported as though they snuck over the border yesterday. In the case of my sister’s clients, they are often deported when they age out of foster care. Those that stay here can’t get legal jobs, they can’t get college financial aid, etc. These kids are in an awful bind, and they are not “few.”</p>

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<p>It is a very, very small percentage of the number of children born to undocumented workers. In our state, between 5-6% of the total. We provide health services and education to both. Many of them are now settled out, they own homes and small businesses, in our state especially in the Wenatchee and Yakima valleys, and provide the client base for white-owned businesses, and the entire health system (which is made up primarily of Caucasian doctors, nurses, and techs, though now more and more sons and daughters of immigrants are entering those professions.)</p>

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<p>“born to undocumented workers”</p>

<p>OK, but the category of illegal immigrant children isn’t restricted to those “born to undocumented workers.” It includes those born to ordinary Mexicans, Ukrainians, Salvadorans, etc. who later illegally enter or stay in this country and bring the kids along. Sounds like you are talking about a small subcategory of these children.</p>

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<p>Nope. Exactly the same category. Most everyone who comes into the country illegally works sooner or later, even if intermittently. And we have very good data on these folks. We track those who work “under the table” (population estimates of course), we track those who pay into Social Security, we track those who get health services, and we track the kids in school.</p>