Hmmm...Will American voters be bought for 40¢ a gallon?

<p>The following statements were made by President Clinton on December 16, 1998.</p>

<p>“Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons.”</p>

<p>“Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq.”</p>

<p>“The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government – a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people. Bringing change in Baghdad will take time and effort. We will strengthen our engagement with the full range of Iraqi opposition forces and work with them effectively and prudently.”</p>

<p>Said by a President who killed more Iraqi children than all the Kurds killed by Saddam Hussein - children and adults - in 30 years. Next to him, Mr. Sleaze is Gandhi.</p>

<p>I hope you do understand though that George Bush did not lie about Iraq. What he said about WMDs, first off, was the opinion of the whole world. No one in any real position in any country said that Iraq did not have WMDs. The question was weather the issue could be solved peacefully. I can even see why everyone thought Saddam had WMDs. If you look at the facts the only logical conclusion you could come to is that they did have WMDs. And I am not talking about Collin Powell’s speech or anything, but just the history of Iraq. When in the early 90’s America invaded Iraq they found WMD, including anthrax. Right? Please point out if anything I’m about to say is incorrect. The UN weapons inspector were called in to find and destroy the weapons. So they found WMD’s again in 1996 and did not destroy all of them. Then in 1998 UN weapons inspector’s are kicked out of Iraq. Clinton initiates a bombing of Iraq and calls them on their WMDs. So now between 1998 and 2003 something had to happen to Saddam’s WMDs. Right? He destroyed them on his own without proving it to the world? Perhaps. He sold them to a different country without proving that they are no longer in Iraq? Again it is a possibility. He moved the weapons into a different country for safekeeping. You surely agree that this is also likely. Regardless of what he did with the WMD’s which we both know definitevely that he had when America invaded they were gone. Albeit, long rage missiles, shells that could only be used for WMDs etc were found. But that ofcourse is not as dangerous as the real WMDs that hopefully were destroyed, but remember, we cannot eliminate the possibility that they are still around somewhere. So under that logic, Bush really had no choice but to invade Iraq, and this ofcourse does not take into account other WMD evidence.</p>

<p>Hussein did use WMDs in the past, and if he did have them, which was definitely, a possibility at the time he would surely not hestitate to use them again in some capacity. You agree, with that conclusion? </p>

<p>When it comes to terrorism, Saddams connection with terror is very clear. Lets for instance take the terror orginization, al-qaida, which is only one of many terror groups that want to destroy America. In 2002 a man named al-Zarqawi was injured while fighting Americans in Afghanistan. He then made his way to Iraq and recieved treatment in a hospital run by Saddam Hussein’s son. After the treatment al-Zarqawi did not leave Iraq but prepared, under Hussien’s direction a terror campaign after his inveitable ousting. This, ofcourse, is not the only link between Iraq and al-Qaida. For instance there were many meeting in the 90’s between them too, even though they stopped short of a definite colabaritive effort for a terror attack on the US. But, that did not bother Saddam who had contact with other terrorists and terrorist orginization. For instance, Saddam funded Hama, PA, PLO, PFLP etc…Although these groups primarily focused on attacks against Jews in Israel and around the world, they still succesfully and deliberately managed to kill American citizens. But thats not the only link with terror that Hussein had. One last instance I want to give to you, is a terrorist whose name was Abu Mazen. He hijacked an Italian cruise ship and threw overboard an American citizen, Jewish, but AMerican nonetheless. Saddam welcomed this man with open arms. And used this man as a teacher in many of the terrorist training camps that were run in Iraq. The connection betweeen terror and Saddam is there. The matter, however, is do you want to admit the link? Do you want to admit that since 9/11 there has not been a terror attack in the US and not one on American interests abroad such as an embassy etc. Certaintly a reason that terrorists attack in countries like England, Spain, Indonesia is that its simply easier to kill people there than here.</p>

<p>So now do you want to admit that the war in Iraq has done good for Americans and even the overwhleming majority who even though are not happy about the way things in Iraq are now, but are certaintly glad the Butcher of Bagdad is no longer able to terrorize them. The tension for religious violence was always there and it needed a catalyst which the US army proved to be. This is not necessarily a bad thing because that religious battle against this type of widespread Islam has to be fought. Better it is fought now than later. Bush ofcourse has not done everything right to say the least. But he has done alot and hopefully the continued presence of our American soldiers will help defeat Islamism, in its most brutal form. But this is not a job just for America. It is a job for Israel, France, England, Russia, Spain, Australia etc…Simply look at the current international conflicts and count how many of them involve Muslims.</p>

<p>kluge,
I agree that it is useful to consider what the underlying motivation might be for someone to do what they do. However, one could make the same argument that those soldiers who oppose the war might easily have an ulterior motive to justify a lack of courage or to be able to say “I told you so” if the war ends badly. It’s much easier to be pessimistic than to be optimistic.</p>

<p>What ulterior motive would a soldier or general, who once supported the war, and no longer does, have? I can’t imagine, in the military community, that one who voices opposition to defense or military operations, such as this one, is looked upon very favorably. In fact, I assume such an individual becomes somewhat of a pariah.</p>

<p>So, what would be their ulterior motive for voicing concern about the course of action?</p>

<p>on edit: glaring grammatical error</p>

<p>I think that people who have no first-hand connection to the military are often oblivious to the office politics that go on there, particularly among the upper-echelon officers corps.</p>

<p>Edit: I should also add that there can certainly be honest differences of opinion within the officers’ corps, but that doesn’t mean that civilian politicians won’t use them for “ulterior” motives, even if the motives of the officers themselves are legitimate.</p>

<p>Also there are plenty of military officers in those levels who support the war and think it was a good idea, although they may disagree on how Bush is fighting the war very weakly</p>

<p>I am oblivious. Please share the ulterior motive for such a change of heart.</p>

<p>AM: read, digest, and then comment. We are frowning upon glibness in our new francophile salons.</p>

<p>I would be surprised if all of the military leadership agreed on everything. Why should they be different from any other endeavor? When I worked for a very large computer company, people often disagreed on strategies and tactices, while supporting the overall goals of the organization. I would imagine that many high level officers agree and are loyal to the overall cause, yet may disagree on how best to meet those goals.</p>

<p>Driver, you added your edit after I read your initial post.</p>

<p>Ulterior misuse by liberal media notwithstanding, what would cause an officer’s change of heart, other than realizing that there truly is a problem with the stated mission?</p>

<p>As SJmom points out, there may not have ever been a change of heart. People disagree on strategies going in, all the time. I would ascribe any ulterior motives to the politicians who have assembled such retired disagreers, not to the disagreers themselves. Although, as I said, office politics is very intense among the officers corps, although it is under the radar for civilians.</p>

<p>Allmusic,
I was speaking of a soldier who chooses not to re-enlist or goes AWOL because of a desire to secure his personal safety. It sounds nobler to claim that you can’t in good conscience continue to fight in Iraq than to say that you’re afraid that you might get hurt. As for former high-ranking officers, being feted by the media for having the “courage” to speak out against the administration would definitely be an enticement.</p>

<p>All this discussion about various people’s motivations for holding various opinions underscores my point: What the soldiers who know Logosprincipal, or Driver, or Allmusic tell them about their opinion of the situation in Iraq is is not necessarily particularly significant. I was responding to Logosprincipal’s “appeal to authority” argument*:

Lots of people have lots of motivations for “wishing” different things to be true. Asserting the purity of your own opinions, while denigrating those of others as being “politically motivated” is just another form of name calling.</p>

<p>The Administration-boosters may be right. Iraq may be on the verge of “turning the corner.” There may be a “light at the end of the tunnel.” Pick your cliche. But I don’t think it’s a media conspiracy, or Dem “talking point”, that Iraq is a mess, and is not, in fact, getting better. I’m basing that on actual expert’s actual, counter-self-interest assessments of matters directly within their area of expertise, as well as the steady stream of bad news from that country, week after week, month after month, year after year. And people being blown up and dying isn’t “spin”, it’s tragedy.</p>

<ul>
<li><a href=“http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html[/url]”>http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
</ul>

<p>

But no one is doing that, my dear sensitive Voltaire. We are in the salon now. Have a cup of tea.</p>

<p>kluge,
So would deciding that one group of people has a self-interest in holding a particular view and that another group does not qualify as a Circumstantial Ad Hominem fallacy?</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html[/url]”>http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>If the only basis for the argument is that assertion: yes, that would be a logical fallacy. So the fact that you generally support the Adminstration’s position does not in itself make your position on any political issue wrong; the fact that I did not vote for George Bush doesn’t make my opinion wrong either. Nor does the fact that the holder of one opinion or another is or is not in the military make their opinion necessarily right (or wrong.)</p>

<p>But, as noted in the article,

So while it is prudent to be cautious about accepting a tobacco company representative’s claim that tobacco doesn’t cause cancer, it’s not unreasonable to assume that if that representative admits that it does there’s probably pretty good evidence to support that position. Addressing a person’s self interest in one side or another of an issue is a valuable tool in considering how much weight to give their opinion. But only that.</p>

<p>…and I give it away for free. Will you guys never learn?

<a href=“Top News, Latest headlines, Latest News, World News &amp; U.S News - UPI.com”>Top News, Latest headlines, Latest News, World News &amp; U.S News - UPI.com;

<p>

<a href=“http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/09/what_did_the_nie_really_say.html[/url]”>http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/09/what_did_the_nie_really_say.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>And then of course, there’s this item from the morning papers, which would do so much to stop breathless CC posters in their tracks:

<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/25/AR2006092500912.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/25/AR2006092500912.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I’d say we can know and judge a bit, without any of those pesky liberal lens or rose colored glasses, just by the sheer death count per day. When 100 people a day are being blown up, it’s pretty hard to justify the party line that things are just going oh, so swimmingly, over there in Eerack.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Source?
Which party said things are going “swimmingly?”</p>

<p>I’ve yet to come across that quote. Could you site it, or something like it.</p>