Holistic Admissions at Berkeley

Parents Forum
841

<p>Californiaa, you keep wanting absolutes. You keep treating it as though there is an absolute formula applied to everyone. Elite schools want SOME kids from inner-city schools, SOME kids from average public schools, SOME kids from magnet schools, SOME kids from boarding schools. You keep trying to act as though there is one uniform thing they want. It’s time to focus on what is best for YOUR daughter and YOUR family, and let the chips fall where they may.</p>

<p>My nephew attended an elite private school in our city, which required considerable effort on his parents’ part to schlep him there and back. Well, his mother didn’t work so that was fine for them. Schlepping my kids 50 miles each day to this elite private school wouldn’t have worked for MY family and OUR schedule, and that’s not how WE wanted to spend our money when our public high schools were perfectly fine, so we didn’t. Stop trying to come up with a formula, and stop pretending that “in this circumstance, they prefer x to y” means that “in every single case, they will always prefer x to y.” </p>

<p>They will take things in context. That’s called holistic admissions.</p>

842

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<p>Yes, which means that you “penalize” smart kids who aren’t in the midst of a bunch of other smart kids. It’s not our bright kid in South Dakota’s fault that he was born on a ranching community in South Dakota and his high school peers are mostly concerned with just getting through basic high school, instead of to two professional parents in suburban DC who are ready and able to send him to TJHSST. I know, I know, if he’s got the wrong genetics, let him eat cake.</p>

843

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Read the hypothetical again.

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844

<p>Put her in a magnet for the quality of the education and the life lessons learned via the competition and higher bar. Help her achieve there, in academic and non-academic ways, in and out of the hs, itself, to enable her to have quality college choices.</p>

<p>NOT, put her in a low performing school because this kid of two Harvard or PhD or med school (or whatever) parents want her to have rank and a high GPA.</p>

<p>How do you not get this? You want a top college, right? If all you wanted from college was GPA and rank, you could send her to community college. There are many great cc’s, but you know the average is not comparable in teaching, challenges, facilities or competition, to serve her as you wish. So, why put her in a subpar hs, when you have a choice?</p>

845

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<p>Why do you care so much about your D’s college education and so little about her high school education?</p>

<p>I am also struck, again, by the absence of any mention of what your D wants. If you really have a D and aren’t just here ■■■■■■■■, I wonder if you have ever asked her what high school SHE wants to go to?</p>

846

<p>I appreciate all advices. Several people told me that I should let my D. decide, not stay in her way.</p>

<p>In fact, I am not staying in her way, at all. I put up the questions that she can’t get an answer to.</p>

<p>The admission is nontransparent and complicated. How would a 9th grader make a decision? Each school markets itself as “the best fit”. Counselors at magnet HS suggest to play it safe and take less AP classes. Easy for HS, but not necessarily best for the kid. Actually, HS counselors prefer standard unified schedule for all students, instead of cherry-picking of individual classes. </p>

<p>Where a kid could get a realistic information? (Friends? internet? marketing?)IF she would reach a decision, I won’t stay in her way, I promise. </p>

<p>I don’t worry about her education per se, because we realized long time ago (at elementary school) that student should learn independently, not in class. I never liked school curriculum, so my D. was always learning in parallel to school. Thus, I really don’t worry about the quality of education that she gets at school … I never relied on it, anyway. ( I still can’t comprehend, how is it possible to teach cell biology before chemistry. For example, I asked my D. to discard 7th grade science textbook, gave her Chemistry textbook, and asked her to go through Chemistry first. She got low grade in science in the first trimester 7th grade, but A+ for all science for the rest of middle school).</p>

847

<p>Well there is a 4th option - home school her. Those kids, if smart, seem to do well in college admissions too. </p>

<p>My cousin was homeschooled (her family traveled all over the country in an RV teaching juggling at schools) and she went to Yale. Anecdotal of course but homeschooling doesn’t mean no good college will take you.</p>

848

<p>californiaaa:</p>

<p>I’ll make this simple and easier for you - do what almost all of us do and make sure you provide your kids with the best reasonably available education and support you can and don’t worry about gaming the system or getting caught up in statistics. </p>

<p>If you have a choice between a HS with a terrible reputation as far as percentage of grads, who goes to which college, offering of higher level courses (some HS don’t have enough high end students to fill out and therefore offer as many AP courses as some other HS), etc. and one that has a much better reputation, have her go to the better one. It’s a better learning environment, they’ll be more likely to have more AP courses if she ends up wanting those, etc.</p>

<p>The above is what most of us do. It’s a no brainer. Keep in mind I used the key word ‘reasonably’. This means don’t hock everything to try to go to some top private HS but you might want to at least try to be in one of the better school districts or go to the better school within whatever district you’re in (if there’s a significant difference between the schools in the district).</p>

<p>Remember that things aren’t so formulaic, even at the UCs that use some formulas. The more numbers driven UCs also use certain social attributes in their admissions such as first-gen, single parent family, etc. Some of the UCs use a more ‘holistic’ method which of course means it’s a more ‘subjective’ method which means it’s less formulaic and less predictable and actually will come down the the subjective analysis of the app readers who make the decisions. Just the happenstance of who does the reading and makes the decision can affect the outcome. However, these variations are likely within a relatively narrow range. </p>

<p>UCB has a huge number of applicants with far more qualified students than they have room for. This means that when the subjective decisions from the holistic reviews are made, those students are qualified even if another qualified student was rejected for reasons people not privy to the details of the apps wouldn’t be able to know. In addition, there’s a certain ‘hit or miss’ in a holistic review where even the same readers might make a different decision depending on their moods and timing of when they read it. They don’t spend a huge amount of time doing the evaluations - there are too many apps. That’s the nature of holistic admissions.</p>

<p>Regarding the ‘top colleges’ discussion - don’t get too caught up in that either. It’s not like there’s a huge difference in going to (whatever) ranking number 1 vs ranking number 3 or ranking number 28 versus ranking number 39, etc. and one shouldn’t be looking strictly at the ranking of the overall college according to some general formula someone (like USNWR) decides to use. For example, if the person planning to go into computer science they might well be better off at CMU or UCB than Harvard or Yale and they might find that it doesn’t really matter whether they studied CS at UCB or UCLA or UCSD (or some others) because they’ll end up with a very similar education and about the same opportunities regardless of which one was attended.</p>

<p>And does it matter in the least whether some people in India or China or Romania might have ‘heard of’ UCLA but not UCSD when the grad pursues employment or grad school opportunities in the USA? Not in the least. It’s totally irrelevant.</p>

849

<p>What my D wants?</p>

<p>She wants a nice beach house, BMW, yacht, big family, many-many kids, and British husband. Why British? She loves British accent from Harry Potter movies, she thinks it’s cute. Oh yes, she wants to have 2 cats and 2 dogs. She doesn’t want to cure cancer, save the world, get a Nobel price, etc. </p>

<p>Any ideas how to get rich in an easy, fast, and legal way? A good college in the only way that I know.</p>

850

<p>There you have it. In early hs, mine fought over the name Kyle for a daughter, til one has a bf named Kyle who didn’t work out. She is a kid. Most 9th graders who come onto CC with such utter certainty (based on misinfo,) get shot down with the advice, “come back in two years.” </p>

<p>I don’t get californiaaaaa. </p>

<p>The way to get rich fast is not to get distracted by…what you want to buy. Rather, to get empowered by your drives, creativity and ability to work hard. She’s a 9th grader. Calif comes across as a stage mom.</p>

<p>Do YOUR homework. Don’t look to us for answers and then argue with us. One of the markers of smarts is being able to seek the right info.</p>

851

<p>So is this all about where best to hobnob with the elite?</p>

852

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Marrying a rich person is probably the easiest way whether she goes to college or not. The other way would be for you to be (or get) rich and hand her a bunch of money. These two methods have worked for a lot of people.</p>

<p>Despite the fact that what I just said is true, I said it a bit flippantly. From what I understand your D is still young, i.e. not yet or just entering HS - right? In that case I’m surprised her top priority isn’t to have horses and meet that Bieber idiot. In other words, she has a lot of maturing yet to go through and as she does her desires for her life will likely change. This is a normal process for everyone. Your job is to be an enabler to do what you reasonably can to provide her with opportunities in her education and experiences and she’ll end up deciding whether to take advantage of them or not, which path she wants to head down (ex: sciences, technology, arts, various humanities, being a slacker), what she really wants out of life, and eventually you’ll all find out where how it worked out.</p>

853

<p>My daughter also plans on being wealthy as an adult. Her father and I have no doubt that she will.</p>

<p>Her first step out of high school will likely be to a second-tier state flagship or Catholic university. College is just that–a step.</p>

854

<p>Californiaaa, adcoms aren’t just going to look at the school profile. They are also going to see your income, your profession, etc. I have no idea what you earn, but given that you are evidently a highly educated professional, they are not going to treat your daughter as a “disadvantaged” student to nearly the same extent they would someone who was first gen and came from poverty. They may well wonder what your daughter was doing in that school in the first place, but she’s not exactly a diamond in the rough.</p>

<p>Bel, re: the three hypothetical students. First of all, I think you are overestimating the value of Science Olympiad awards, or underestimating the strength of elite school application pools. I didn’t say the kid had won 15 gold medals in SO, I said he had awards. In my upper-middle class public alone, that was probably true of a handful of students in every class year. Still nice, still something that requires significant intelligence, but hardly indicative of the kind of extraordinary talent that would indicate a high likelihood of making important scientific discoveries. The elite school will want some students like this, but it won’t want all of them. In fact, if it took all of them, I’m not sure how much room there would be for future historians or authors or supreme court justices, never mind students from diverse backgrounds.</p>

<p>I’m also not so sure the higher-scoring valedictorian even has a better shot at making an important scientific discovery than the lower-income student, assuming he’s also a STEM kid. Someone who can get a 700 in math with limited opportunities, mediocre education, and limited study time coming from a school where even most of the other top students aren’t approaching that level may have more potential than the other student, and has attained a high enough level of achievement as is that he won’t be so behind that he can’t catch up given the work ethic he has already demonstrated.</p>

<p>As for grad rate/GPA - do you honestly think any of these three students are at high risk of flunking out? Does it really matter if student 1 gets a 3.9 and student 3 only manages a 3.7 - especially if, as is more than likely, he improves over his four years?</p>

<p>These schools are already, I suspect, accepting the small percentage of students in their application pool that are so extraordinary and so likely to do great things (academically) that they stand out even among other excellent students. At the low end, they are accepting very few applicants who aren’t great students with well-above average scores. When it comes to the middle - i.e, the vast majority of applicants - relatively small differences in rank and SATs - and yes, the difference between a 2250 and a 2370 is pretty minor - aren’t going to be as important as other factors.</p>

855

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<p>Well, if that college is St Andrews and your name Kate Middleton. For the rest of the mortals, college is hardly the ticket it used to be:</p>

<p>[Rise</a> Of College Student Underemployment - Business Insider](<a href=“http://www.businessinsider.com/rise-of-college-student-underemployment-2013-8]Rise”>Rise of College Student Underemployment)</p>

<p>But there is hope. Save your pesos, and send the D to London. She might bag the other Prince. Or that other Harry from One Direction! ;)</p>

856

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<p>Well, the elite MADE the elite schools. It is access to connections the elite provide which is often touted as a benefit of an elite school. The elite at full pay make it possible for the non-elite to be subsidized. The elite educators wish to teach at the elite schools so they can have elite status. The elite faculty are by sheer association and employment elite. Chances are a job offer will come from some elite’s parents, grandparents or business associates who already travel in elite circles. And let’s not forget the exposure to mega elite life partners.</p>

<p>So, since you asked…yes…it’s about hob nobbing with the elite.</p>

857

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<p>Other than inheritance, the common ways of getting rich are not necessarily easy or fast. Of course, it also depends on how rich…</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Investment banking and management consulting: yes, starts from an elite college. But life while working is quite hard, stressful, and unhealthy: [Warning:</a> Banking May Be Hazardous to Your Health - WSJ.com](<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204062704577223623824944472.html]Warning:”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204062704577223623824944472.html)</p></li>
<li><p>Medicine: does not require starting at an elite college, but requires excellent academic performance in college to gain admission to any medical school. Then add more time in medical school and residency, plus lots of medical school debt to pay off before earning real money.</p></li>
<li><p>Law: does not require starting at an elite college, but requires excellent academic performance in college to gain admission to a top 14 law school. Then excellent performance there is needed to get a good lawyer job. The risk of failure is high, with failed lawyers being unable to find jobs that pay enough to pay off law school debt.</p></li>
<li><p>Engineering, computer software, actuarial, etc. jobs: do not require starting at an elite college, but do require a reasonable level of mathematical ability and the interest and willingness to do the work in college. Job prospects vary based on business and industry cycles (particularly computer science). In computer software, productivity differences between people can be an order of magnitude or more, so those at the average or lower end of the range tend to be priced out of the market as they get older, due to the societal expectation of increasing pay levels with seniority.</p></li>
<li><p>Start your own business and become successful: a lot of work and risk, obviously. But very rewarding for those who do succeed. Elite college not required (some entrepreneurs did not graduate from any college).</p></li>
<li><p>Marrying into money: in terms of colleges, the elites may help if you want to marry an investment banker or management consultant. But there are other colleges where the scions of inherited wealth tend to concentrate (although that may be because they are unaffordable for students needing financial aid). Of course, you still need to work to gain the attention of a potential spouse, and verify that the potential spouse actually has money, rather than buying status symbols with debt.</p></li>
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858

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<p>Are you defining elite as having money, or are you defining elite as a certain class (which may or may not have money, and often has less money than some other sectors of society)? </p>

<p>The guy who gives $20 MM to his alma mater State Directional U to build a new building - is he any less elite in one sense that the guy who gives $20 MM to his alma mater Harvard? Does it matter?</p>

859

<p>to ucbalumnus,</p>

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<li><p>Investment banking and management consulting - may work really great. She is good in math. </p></li>
<li><p>Medicine - unfortunately, not. My D is too afraid to see blood, even on the screen. When she volunteered in vet’s clinic, she couldn’t even touch sick animals. </p></li>
<li><p>Law - nice option, maybe.</p></li>
<li><p>Engineering, computer software, - thanks. </p></li>
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<p>Thank you very much. Yes, she plans to major in economics, finance, engineering, or CS. She is really good in math at her HS level, but I doubt she would be able to major in math, where one needs to be a genius.</p>

860

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<p>She still has all of HS in front of her. If you homeschool she could advance very quickly. If you send her to the magnet she could not only take high level math but perhaps also join math clubs or teams so she can begin to learn high level problem solving in a group setting.</p>

<p>The “gang-infested” high school is probably not going to be a good option for getting advanced in math whether she has a natural aptitude for it or not.</p>