<p>That’s a wonderful philosophy to follow until you find yourself stuck working at the mall while having a boatload of student loans to pay off. I’ve seen this happen to a bunch of people. </p>
<p>If education were free, I would agree with you. But it isn’t. For many people, education is one of the most expensive things you will ever buy in your life, not just in terms of upfront tuition costs, but also in terms of opportunity costs (the time you spend studying could have instead be spent working and making money). Hence, it makes sense to treat it as an investment and hence determine the sort of return you will get on your investment. </p>
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<p>So can engineers. In fact, it’s become something of a running joke at MIT that many of the best engineering students do not take engineering jobs, but instead take jobs in consulting or banking. </p>
<p>But the point is, as an engineering student, you have a backup career in case nothing else works out. As a math major, if you don’t get a business job, what are you going to to?</p>
<p>One of my math teachers was a ChemE grad, and another who teaches physics and math was a MechE grad. When you’re comparing which major is better for teaching, engineering still comes out top because you’ll have a back-up plan at least.</p>
<p>I don’t know if American schools require a teacher to have a same degree in whatever course they’re teaching, so ignore my post if they do (I’m in Canada BTW).</p>
<p>Okay, now I’m beginning to feel like this whole argument is just stupid. Picking your major based on how much money you’re going to make, and whether or not your major allows for a “back up” plan is ridiculous. Follow what you want to do. If you hate what you’re doing, or you suck at it, why major in that field?</p>
<p>And I don’t see how you real life examples “prove” that engineering is better for a teaching degree. In fact, I was referring to becoming a math professor.</p>
<p>While I obviously don’t know, these sound like the words of people who have the wealth to do whatever they want to do. If so, then count yourself lucky.</p>
<p>Look, the fact is, the vast majority of people do not get to have a job that allows them to do whatever they actually like. Most people have to take a job that they don’t really like, just because it pays the bills. That’s life. You have to put food on the table and support your family. I’m quite certain that the guy cleaning toilets or digging ditches for a living does’t actually enjoy what he’s doing. He’s doing it because he has to pay the bills. </p>
<p>I’ll put it another way. If I always just did what I really liked to do, I would just sit around all day in my house, watching sports and eating junk food. You don’t always get to do what you really like to do. Sometimes you have to do things you don’t like in order to get to do the things that you do like. That’s life. Almost nobody in the world gets to do what they like to do all the time. If you happen to be one of those people, count yourself lucky.</p>
<p>I’ll give you a third analogy. Be honest with yourself. I think we all know in our hearts that if college degrees did not get people jobs, then far fewer people would be going to college. The reason why most people go to college is to get them a job. In other words, if we lived in a world where college graduates did not make more money than high school graduates, I think we all know that most people would not choose to go to college. In other words, most college students are going to college with the purpose of improving their career prospects. In other words, it’s about the jobs. </p>
<p>Besides, I invite you to talk to some of the peope who get college degrees in unmarketable majors, and then end up being forced to take low-end jobs because nobody wants to hire them. Walk a mile in their shoes, and then you can come back and say that people should study what they want. When you have to put up with making barely more than minimum wage stocking shelves at Target, despite having a college degree, a I know one person is doing now, then maybe that might change your mind about what you should and should not study. That guy studied what he wanted to study, and now he freely regrets that he didn’t major in something more marketable. </p>
<p>It’s idealistic to say that you should study what you want, but then the reality of having to pay the bills is going to hit you. While his friends who studied engineering or nursing or accounting or whatever are buying houses, this guy is stuck living at home because he can’t afford anything better.</p>
<p>I know people have to pay bills, its not that hard of a concept.</p>
<p>But the fact of the matter is you have yet to provide me with any evidence to support your claims than engineering provides you with a better opportunity to succeed than a degree in just about any science (and even some humanities). You claim that engineers always have something to turn back to if a business (or other) career does work out is really not that convincing seeing as how only a small fraction of the jobs in this world actually deal with engineering.</p>
<p>I don’t see how I haven’t provided any such information. All you have to do is look at the salary surveys. These are things that you can easily find for yourself.</p>
<p>You will see from the data that, time and time again, on average, engineers/CS students get paid better than humanities and science majors do. Why would companies be willing to pay more for these engineers/CS students if they weren’t more marketable? Surely these companies aren’t dumb. </p>
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<p>But what does that have to do with anything? Only a small fraction of the jobs in the world have to do with investment banking, yet I think we can all agree that investment bankers do very well. Only a small fraction of jobs in the world have to do with neurosurgery, yet I think nobody disputes that neurosurgeons do very well. I fail to see how having only a small fraction of jobs has anything to do with the topic at hand.</p>
<p>There are a few schools of thought as to how to live life.</p>
<p>1) Play it safe. In order to feed and clothe your family and to be able to afford whatever you might need, choose the career that is the most lucrative and work your behind off in order to rise in that career. Stash as much tax-deferred cash as you possibly can, put your kids through college, drive the nice car, have the country club memberships, retire to Florida, and die with a lot of money, hoping that you’ve lived a meaningful and exciting life along the way.</p>
<p>2) Follow your heart. Figure out the thing that you most love doing and throw yourself into making your living that way. Pursue your passions, marry for love and not money, have a family, and hope that your kids end up being brilliant rollerblading electric cellists, because otherwise they’re never going to get to get money for college. Change careers several times, if you’d like, money be darned, because happiness/passion/joy is the most important pursuit of all.</p>
<p>Those are pretty much the two extremes… The trick is to strike a balance. Maybe you’re a fantastically passionate basketweaver, but it’s often pretty difficult to make a living as a basketweaver, so you might want to consider a more stable career, like teaching art. On the other hand, you may know that neurosurgery is the thing that you’re best at, that you understand the brain like it’s the back of your hand, which, by the way, is so steady that you could balance a ball bearing on the back of a spoon with no trouble whatsoever. Still, you hate neurosurgery. Don’t be a neurosurgeon! Find something that you like, even if it means less money. Find something that can pay the bills, find something that you can make a living at, but don’t do something that you don’t like just because you’ll make money at it, because money is never a sure thing, and money rarely is the source of happiness.</p>
<p>I’m really lucky. I’m one of the few who is deliriously happy as a structural engineer, and that’s carried me to the top of my game… I went to a top college, the top grad school, and now I’m starting a really awesome career with a top engineering firm. I could’ve been a concert pianist… I almost was, until carpal tunnel and a sincere desire not to spend the rest of my life locked in a practice room changed my path. I could’ve been a lawyer or a doctor or a businesswoman… I’d have gotten a lot more money. If I’d chosen an easier major, I’d have had a higher GPA and probably would’ve been able to get into at least one of the top business or law or med schools. Still, it’s really not what I wanted to do. I’ve got this thing about dirt and steel and concrete: I just like being around it. I’m a sucker for construction sites. I can make good money doing what I love, and for that, I’m really lucky.</p>
<p>For those who are less fortunate, whose passions don’t intersect with gold-paved paths, you’ve got to weigh the pros and cons. Engineering provides a lot of options. All engineering is, is applied science. Well, you can apply science to pretty much anything… the trick is to just figure out what part of “anything” you like best, and to become the best applier-of-science to that particular thing that you can possibly become. In addition to the broad range of options that engineering offers, there’s also a great deal of marketability and employability in the field. You’re not going to get stuck on a streetcorner, hawking your wares next to the destitute basketweaver. You’ll have a job.</p>
<p>Just remember that you only get one shot at life. That is so <em>incredibly</em> important. Live life to the fullest. If that means that in order to be happy and to be fulfilled, you have to take a chance on becoming a performance artist or a philosopher or a jazz guitarist and not be as financially secure, then that’s what you need to do. If you feel as though your world would fall apart if you weren’t absolutely positive that your children would have a large yard to play in, nice clothes to wear, money to travel with, and funds to use for college educations, then maybe you’ll have to sacrifice a few dreams.</p>
<p>Everyone’s different. Sakky’s right for how he sees things, I’m right for how I see things, everyone here is right, for their own personal paths in life. I personally feel like it’s sad to live life through backup plans… I don’t like things planned out to a T. I find that things get much more interesting when I don’t know every little thing I’m doing. Most of the coolest things I’ve ever done have been as a result of a weird, whimsical turn in life, and my hope for life is to serve as many people and to experience as much of life as I possibly can. Having a career where there’s a steady paycheck is just a delightfully unexpected perk.</p>
<p>There is one thing I know: the human experience is different for every single person. If there’s one thing we tend to do on these boards, it’s to categorize and rank and say, “this is better than this, this is the highest rank blah, you can’t go wrong if you go into this field, and the best way to make a lot of money is to do A, B, C.” What works for one person may not work for another. What’s “hot” and “safe” for one aspiring engineer may be a total flop for someone else.</p>
<p>When you’re on this forum, you’ve got to take everything with a grain of salt. When people talk in absolutes, know that there are exceptions. When they talk about black and white, know that there’s really no black and white, there are just shades of gray. Take their input, weave it in with your own personal truths, and decide for <em>yourself</em> what the best path for you to take is. There’s no single answer out there. </p>
<p>Engineering’s a good career, but not if you hate engineering. You might end up being a high school physics teacher if you major in physics, or you might end up winning the Nobel prize. Or, you might end up really loving your job as a high school physics teacher. You might teach physics to the kid who will grow up and win the Nobel prize. Who knows. Choose your own path. What’s said here is merely based upon one person’s experience, and despite post count, or despite however many times that a person has given good advice before, or how many supporting links they post (because there are kooky web journalists out there who will ‘prove’ just about anything, and you can find articles to prove your point no matter what you’re trying to argue), or no matter how right a person may seem, their responses are just based upon their <em>own</em> experience.</p>
<p>I agree with this, but I would also point out that you have to be cognizant of the fact that there is a lot of ‘journalistic dark matter’ out there. What I mean by that is that the posters on CC tend to be a highly self-selected group of people, and tend to be highly successful. Most people who have done poorly are going to want to talk about their experiences publicly. It’s like how in Hollywood, it’s easy to see the 1 guy who becomes a movie star, but it’s hard to see the other 999 people who tried and didn’t make it. It’s easy for a person to succeed and then come back here and talk about their success. It’s not so easy for somebody who failed to come back and talk about their failures. So if anything, I would say that the opinions of CC are probably slanted towards idealism and optimism. I am quite certain that all of the people who graduated from college and ended up having to work at the mall would prefer to not talk about themselves. Hence, keep the biases of all of the posters here in mind, including the bias of self-selection.</p>
<p>well you can do pretty much anything that an engineer can do; many math majors can, and have been known to go into CS or engineering, as well as business or teaching. so in that respect, it’s more versatile than engineering and would probably offer a better pay off to the brightest students</p>
<p>"how only a small fraction of the jobs in this world actually deal with engineering. </p>
<p>But what does that have to do with anything?"</p>
<p>It has to do with the fact, as MR_JR just pointed out, that someone with a math/physics/science/and even some humanities degrees can do ANYTHING that an engineering major can do outside of becoming an engineer (and to a certain extent many physics and maths majors can be hired by engineering firms). So I find it fallacious to say that an engineering degree leaves you with so many more options, because the only option that it leaves you that isn’t presented to other majors is in many of the engineering fields, which hire only a small percentage of the work force in this country.</p>
<p>I agree that an engineering major fresh out of school is far more valuable to an engineering company than a humanities/science major is to their respective fields and that is why the average starting salary is higher. But I would like to point out that if the purpose of an education is to pay for bills, that a $40,000 dollar starting salary can certainly do that. These links show to me that engineers do not make that much more on average than most other majors, the princeton link shows economics as making more than both mechE and civE, heck, even eastern asia studies makes a fraction less than engineering majors. So explain to me why someone with a profound love for these subjects should drop that to study engineering, where they probably will not succeed, only to make a few thousand dollars more once they have graduated?</p>
<p>That’s true if you happen to go to Princeton, as many Princeton grads, from all majors, end up in lucrative fields like consulting and banking.</p>
<p>But Princeton is an elite school. But what if you don’t go to Princeton, or one of its equivalents? What if you just go to an average school? The vast majority of students out there go to average schools. </p>
<p>Once again, look at the general salary surveys. You will see that, in general, the engineers make SUBSTANTIALLY more than the liberal arts majors do, to start.</p>
<p>Hence, the notion of making 40k to start is only a dream for most people. The liberal arts majors are making 30k. The psych majors are making 25k.</p>
<p>So it’s not a matter of “just a few thousand dollars more”, unless you are going to an elite school like Princeton. The difference is actually TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars more, for the average college student going to the average school. There’s a big difference between being an average ChemE making 50k to start, and being an average liberal arts student, making 30k to start.</p>
<p>To take a look at another school, look at Berkeley. Notice how the differences in salary are quite large. For example, the average English Berkeley student makes 34k to start, whereas the average EECS student makes 62k to start. That’s almost double! I think a lot of English students would prefer to be making the money that the EECS students are making. Yet even the English students are doing better than the Theater Studies students who make less than 20k. </p>
<p>Hence, you said it yourself - if the purpose is to pay the bills, and 40k can do that, then the answer for most students is not to study the liberal arts, because, as the surveys have shown, the average liberal arts student makes only 30k to start. Sure, if you happen to go to an elite school like Princeton, then you have other options, but most students don’t go to elite schools. </p>
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<p>I never said that engineering leaves you with “so many more” options. I said it leaves you with one more option, but that one extra option is a very good one. Basically, engineers can do anything that a math or physics student can do, and also have one more option. </p>
<p>I also continue tofail to see the relevance of a job that has, as you say, hires only a small percentage of the workforce. So what? Like I said, surgery has to do with only a small percentage of the workforce, but we can all agree that surgeons do quite well for themselves. Investment banking is only a tiny fraction of the workforce out there, but it pays extremely well. Some of the largest jobs out there are things like retail clerks and shelf-stockers (i.e. working at the mall or at Walmart), but who really wants to be stocking shelves at the mall after graduating from college? </p>
<p>Besides, your logic cuts both ways. If you can say that engineering represents only a small percentage of jobs out there, then I can say that mathematics and physics represent an EVEN SMALLER percentage of jobs. After all, how many people out there really work as professional mathematicians or physicists? You have to agree that it’s a pretty tiny number - smaller than the number of engineers. So to follow your own logic, if you say that people shouldn’t prefer engineering because it represents a small fraction of jobs out there, then people shouldn’t prefer math or physics either, for the same reason. </p>
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<p>There’s no doubt that some math and physics students, especially the top ones, can work as engineers. But on the other hand, some engineers that I know work as physicists and mathematicians. For example, I know a number of people who did undergrad engineering and then got their PhD’s in math or physics at elite graduate schools. </p>
<p>Hence, I fail to see how math or physics can be any more versatile than engineering is. Some math/physics students can work as engineers. But some engineers can work as mathematicians/physicists. So it seems like a wash to me. </p>
<p>But the key is that you say that the brightest math/physics students have the opportunity to work as engineers. But the key word there is ‘brightest’. If you get an engineering degree, you can work as an engineer even if you aren’t that bright. I’ve seen a lot of mediocre engineers out there. After all, there are a LOT of no-name engineering schools out there, churning out many graduates that are OK, but certainly not geniuses. {Don’t get me wrong, some of them are geniuses, but most of them are not}. Again, take a look at the salary surveys and you will see that, on average, engineers make more than math and physics majors do.</p>
<p>Like I said, math and physics are difficult majors. Furthermore, they are quite similar to engineering. Hence, unless your goal is to teach in high school or to get your PhD or whatever it is, then from a simple careerist standpoint, it makes little sense to major in math or physics when you could instead major in engineering. If you’re going to work hard, you might as well get the marketable degree. </p>
<p>Now, don’t get me wrong. I agree that in general, you should study what you like. However, you should also be paying attention to the market. After all, you probably don’t want to be racking up all manners of student debt studying what you really love only to end up working at the mall, yet a lot of college grads wind up that way. I don’t particularly see, if you like math or physics, why studying CS or engineering is so bad. It’s almost the same thing. Engineering/CS is basically just applied physics and applied math. I can agree that if you really hate science and math, then maybe majoring in engineering may not be your cup of tea because you probably won’t be able to complete the degree. But if you’re a science/tech guy, then engineering is clearly the safe way to go. The money is there, so you might as well take it.</p>
<p>Think of it like insurance. Most people buy fire insurance for their house. Only a tiny percentage of houses out there will ever burn down. Yet buying that insurance gives you that extra bit of security. Sure, odds are, you probably don’t need it because your house probably won’t catch fire. But there’s a chance that you might need it. You’ve reduced your risk. You can look at engineering the same way. It gives you a good backup career that you have in your back pocket in case you need it. You’ve reduced your risk. Specifically, you’ve reduced the chances that you will end up working in the mall. </p>
<p>Let’s not be too idealistic here. While it’s nice to say that everybody should just do want they want, the fact is, most people do not get to do what they want. If everybody in the world did what they wanted, there would be no garbagemen, no maids, no janitors, no ditch-diggers. The vast majority of people out there hold jobs because it pays the bills. Yes, there are ancillary benefits out there like enjoying your work, but at the end of the day, you go to work to pay the bills. After all, think of it this way. Almost nobody would continue to go to work if they didn’t get paid. </p>
<p>Hence, the point is, improving your marketability and market worth are legitimate concerns. It is entirely appropriate to worry about how to build your career and how to provide for your family. Throwing caution to the wind is inadvisable. I am not saying that people should always chase the money. What I am saying is that money is a legitimate concern.</p>
<p>First off, I have never made a reference to compare liberal arts majors to engineering majors. I agree with you that an art history major or something of that nature is a virtually useless degree in terms of the work force (the elite schools such as princeton are obviously an exception, not the rule). My response refering to the links was actually to the CNN link citing many majors averaging around 40k a year, which quite frankly will pay the bills just fine. And I would argue that even 30k a year would pay the bills as well, I have had family living in DC living off of less than 30k a year, so it can be done, but thats another issue.</p>
<p>My main problem with your argument was based off of this quote:</p>
<p>“As a math major, if you don’t get a business job, what are you going to to?”</p>
<p>And you just said:</p>
<p>“I never said that engineering leaves you with “so many more” options. I said it leaves you with one more option, but that one extra option is a very good one. Basically, engineers can do anything that a math or physics student can do, and also have one more option.”</p>
<p>By studying engineering you leave one more option open. Do you realize that there are probably hundreds upon hundred of options for you to make a career out of, so the effect of adding one more option seems rather trivial to me. The fact is that you can work in nearly any industry or follow any career path with a physical science degree (and even some humanities degrees like economics), just as you can with an engineering degree. </p>
<p>"Besides, your logic cuts both ways. If you can say that engineering represents only a small percentage of jobs out there, then I can say that mathematics and physics represent an EVEN SMALLER percentage of jobs. After all, how many people out there really work as professional mathematicians or physicists? You have to agree that it’s a pretty tiny number - smaller than the number of engineers. So to follow your own logic, if you say that people shouldn’t prefer engineering because it represents a small fraction of jobs out there, then people shouldn’t prefer math or physics either, for the same reason. "</p>
<p>You are missing my point, that is not what I was trying to convey at all. My point is that with an engineering degree you are left with that one extra option, an option that accounts for a very small percentage of the jobs in this country. Is it really worth it to not study something you love so that you can be left with this tiny fraction of an advantage?</p>
<p>And many more majors are grouped together under the rubric ‘liberal arts’. CNN didn’t break down every single individual liberal arts majors, but I think implication is clear that a lot of majors are encapsulated within the liberal arts category. True, some of the liberal arts majors will make more than 30k, but that means that others will make less. For example, in one of the surveys, CNN break out psychology as paying only 25k. </p>
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<p>It’s not just a simple matter of “paying the bills”. I agree that you can pay the bills just by working at McDonalds. The real key is whether you want to be able to have a semi-comfortable life so that you aren’t constantly living paycheck to paycheck, and perhaps buy a house. Clearly getting an engineering degree will help you towards those goals more so than most degrees will, and in particular, more than most of the liberal arts degree will. </p>
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<p>Uh, no, because some options are far far better than others. Everybody has the ‘option’ to work at McDonalds or Walmart, or any of the stores at the mall, but are these really good options? </p>
<p>What really matters is not so much the number of options you have, but rather the QUALITY of the options. There are literally thousands of crappy jobs out there. Just drive down to the mall and you will see lots of working people. Those are all ‘options’. You can work at these jobs. The problem is that nobody really wants to take those jobs, because, well, they’re crappy. That’s why people like ariesathena go to law school. Law school only gives her one more option (to be a lawyer), but it’s a very good option, certainly a lot better than working at Walmart. People go to med-school to give themselves one more option - to be a doctor - but it’s a very good option. By the same token, people get engineering degrees to give them a good option. </p>
<p>Now, you might say that it’s not fair that I constantly talk about working at the mall, yet that overlooks the fact that a lot of college grads out there don’t get decent jobs and end up having to take one of the crappy jobs, like working at the mall. </p>
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<p>Again, see above. Plenty of people do precisely what I am saying. Medical students are trying to give themselves one more option. Law students too. Pharmacy students too. It’s not a “tiny fraction” of an advantage. Doctors get paid far better than average. So do lawyers and pharmacists. So do engineers. </p>
<p>Nobody is saying that you shouldn’t try to study something that you love. But, like I said, sometimes you have to be cognizant of the job market. Like I said, physics/math and engineering are ALMOST the same thing. Who said that somebody who likes physics wouldn’t also like engineering? Very few people are even able to distinguish between the two. There are entire engineering classes that are basically physics classes in everything but name. For example, if you walked into an Engineering Thermodynamics lecture, and I lied to you and told you that this was actually a Physics Thermodynamics class, you probably wouldn’t be able to tell the difference. The same can be said for lectures on Fluid Mechanics, Dynamics, Heat Transfer, Electric Circuits. It’s all basically the same thing. The same can be said for mathematics and its relationship with CS. In fact, at a place like MIT, many of the CS classes are in fact cross-listed math classes. What that means is that those math classes ARE CS classes. For example, the Math class 18.410J (Introduction to Algorithms) is exactly the same class as EECS class 6.046J (Introduction to Algorithms). Same prof, same time, same room, same book, same homework, same everything. It’s all the same. Math class 18.437J (Distributed Algorithms) is the same class as EECS 6.852J (Distributed Algorithms). There are many examples like this. </p>
<p>The point is, there are only a few rare people who can truly say that they love physics or math, but don’t like engineering/CS. And these rare people tend to be highly specialized and skilled that they will almost certainly be getting their PhD’s and becoming academics or researchers. Sure, I agree that these people should major in physics or math. I’m talking about REGULAR people. Let’s face it. Most people do not have the talent to get a PhD in physics or math. Hence, I am saying that regular people will tend to be better off getting engineering/CS degrees than getting physics/math degrees. I am not saying that they would be in bad straits if they get a physics/math degree. But they would be financially better off if they had engineering/CS degrees. And, like I said, you’d be studying almost the same thing. I am not asking anybody to do something they loathe. Most people, especially most regular people, who like physics or math would also like engineering/CS.</p>
<p>sakky, it’s pretty amazing whenever someone clearly won an argument, but then you seem to ignore their point and reframe the entire original argument to match your responses. </p>
<p>first off, everytime somebody mentions nursing, pharmacy, medical field, or something that pays well above average with practically absolute certain job security, you will try to reframe that these suggestions are not better than engineering because you need more than a bachelor’s degree.</p>
<p>here’s your hypocrisy, you’ve said many times that people on this forum are generally a self selected group of highly motivated and eventually successful people within their fields. many studies have shown the most successful people within their whitecollar fields have more than just a bachelors degree, many have master’s and professional degrees as well. most CEO’s have an MBA.</p>
<p>and most of what people post up in this forum is meant as advice or suggestions for the type of motivated, generally and eventually successful person who reads this forum.</p>
<p>here’s a link to my 11 page debate w/sakky over the pros and cons of engineering as a major</p>
<p>i totally disagree w/this assumption that any regular joe can complete an engineering degree even at a no name college. most engineering programs especially in ME, EE, Civil are ABET accredited so their coursework is pretty much the same everywhere though not necessarily the difficulty. so when you come out from any univ(top or bottom rated univ) in those 3 majors you’re expected to have the same knowledge within your field. that covers probably around 50% of engineers. the major engineering fields that i can remember off the top of my head that aren’t ABET accredited are definitely BME (biomedical) cuz its so new, comp sci , comp engin and anything software related or the smaller engineering disciplines. </p>
<p>now back to whether or not anybody can do engineering. there is no quantifiable way you and I could win or lose this argument because there is no way we can prove the intelligence of general college student.</p>
<p>but i’d be willing to bet that the liberal arts majors struggled w/ basic math and algebra growing up. i live with a bunch of liberal arts majors, and i tell you, judging by their critical thinking abilities they would get smoked on the curve in upper div engineering courses.</p>
<p>A LOT of people do not have the intelligence(critical thinking & problem solving ability) and work ethic it takes to be an engineer.</p>
<p>therefore it nullifies your original argument that liberal arts majors shoudl switch to engineering because it offers better job opportunities, which it does but you base your argument on the false assumption that liberal arts majors have the ability do engineering</p>
<p>First, if anyone with a college degree doesn’t have the capabilities to find a job at somewhere outside of a mall then they frankly could not cut it in an engineering major. They would be in a whole world of hurt if they even tried. </p>
<p>Aside from your working in a mall option or some other blue collar job that doesn’t require an education I can find very few options that engineering opens up that would not otherwise be presented to nearly any major. Besides, a career in engineering is not a far far better option if you don’t like engineering/physics or if you aren’t any good at it.</p>
<p>With the exception of nursing, that’s absolutely right - you need more than just a bachelor’s degree. And in particular, people with engineering degrees can go to med-school, pharm school, or so forth if they so wish. I know plenty who have. </p>
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<p>I said that CC people are highly self-selected, but that doesnt’ mean that they are so self-selected that all of them are going to become highly successful. In fact, I know that many here will not be successful. </p>
<p>And in particular, who I am really talking about are the people who don’t visit CC. Just because you don’t come to CC doesn’t mean that you cannot be a topic of discussion. After all, I’m sure we all know people who are not on CC who we can influence because we talk to them. Many of these people are regular people. These regular people are often times better off studying something other than what they are currently studying. </p>
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<p>I never said that ALL liberal arts majors should switch over to engineering. In fact, I have freely agreed that if you absolutely loathe technical subjects, you shouldn’t do it. </p>
<p>My point is, if you can handle a technical subject, you should probably do one. I would assert that many (certainly not ALL, but many) liberal arts students probably could conclude an engineering degree at a no-name school, but choose not to. Then some of them find themselves working at the mall. Working as an engineer is clearly better than working at the mall. </p>
<p>Hence, my argument still stands clear and has clearly NOT been nullified. </p>
<p>Besides, what about you? You have always advocated that people should study health-care fields. What about those people who can’t handle these fields? What about those people who aren’t good enough to be in the health-care industry? Does that nullify your argument? </p>
<p>If you want to talk about regular Joe’s who aren’t good enough to become engineers, then we should also talk about regular Joe’s who aren’t good enough to become doctors or pharmacists or nurses or any of the other health-care fields. </p>
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<p>Oh really? I know plenty of quite sharp liberal arts grads who are right now working at the mall. They can pontificate until the end of time about such obscure subjects as the medieval architecture and about Elizabeth poetry. But none of that stuff got them a job. In fact, quite a few of them even managed to retrain themselves in computer skills so that they could get out of working at the mall. Right now, they’re getting decent jobs as computer systems administrators and computer networking technicians. But that was of course after spending quite a bit of time after graduation working at the mall. I am quite certain that these people would have been able to complete engineering degrees or CS degrees. They are basically working as computer techs now. In fact, just yesterday, one of them told me that if he had to do it all over again, he should have majored in CS. </p>
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<p>Uh, what did I say? I said that if you loathe engineering/physics, you shouldn’t major in it.</p>
<p>However, the fact is, most people aren’t particularly passionate about anything. The truth is, a lot of college students really don’t care that much about what they study. They just want to get a job. Come on, you know it’s true. You’ve seen the students of today. A lot of them don’t really show much love for a particular subject. They just want to get a degree so they can get a job. Hence, these people are probably better off studying engineering/CS rather than a liberal art or a natural science. After all, the goal for them is to get a job. </p>
<p>Besides, you were talking about people who loved physics or loved math. It’s a rare person indeed who loves physics/math, but hates engineering/CS, because they are almost the same thing. Engineering is really just specialized kind of applied physics. CS is really just a specialized kind of applied math. I am saying that if you like science/math, you are probably better off financially in taking engineering or CS.</p>
<p>“Come on, you know it’s true. You’ve seen the students of today.”</p>
<p>Yea, I know the students of today and 80% of them hate math and physics (or simply can’t do it). So why should they get into engineering again? And your right, most people want to go to school so that they can get a job and make money, but again 80% (probably even more) want to do that in the easiest way possible. Engineering is by no means an easy major and your average student today would rather not be stressed out all of the time studying a subject that they probably don’t like and can’t get. This student will have a much easier time studying something else in college and enjoy life a lot more, and frankly, these students still have plenty of opportunities to have successful careers with salaries rivaling that of engineering students (that is not to say that starting salaries will be the same, but you have to look at this in the long run). I see no reason why a student should study engineering simply because they have the mental capacity to do so, even if they are indifferent about the subject matter, there are still plenty of options once you graduate with say an econ degree (something that can be obtained much easier than an engineering degree).</p>
<p>“CS is really just a specialized kind of applied math”</p>
<p>Last time I checked applied math and math were two completely different subjects. So this argument holds no weight for someone who wants to study pure math.</p>
<p>The curriculum for physics/math and engineering are vastly different, I could easily see how one could be interested much more in one than the other and I see no reason why engineering would be anymore advantageous to you. </p>
<p>“I am saying that if you like science/math, you are probably better off financially in taking engineering or CS.”</p>
<p>I still don’t see this. Aside from starting salaries there is virtually no difference in career earnings. The average salary for physical scientists (including astronomers, chemists, and physicists) is 80k according to money magazine. Very comparable to engineering salaries, so again, what is the difference? Why not study what you enjoy more?</p>
<p>The same can be said for many other majors as well. Looking at starting salaries of particular majors is not a great indication of how they will do in the long run. It is commonly known that engineering majors start high and plateau quickly in terms of salaries. But thats not to say that any other major can’t reach that same plateau in some other field. Just because they start at a lower level does not indicate that they cannot reach those levels.</p>