<p>“If the acceptance rate to the private school is close to 50% to 70% then there is a lot of room for the school to play with”</p>
<p>-No, 100%, they cannot afford not accepting somebody. I am talking about the most expensive school in a region, with some kids coming from another state (every day hourly commute one way) and they still would have more than 50 kids in class.</p>
<p>jym626–here is a study that purports to find affluence correlates with greater drug use.</p>
<p>[Study</a> Finds Rich Kids More Likely to Use Drugs Than Poor | The Partnership at Drugfree.org](<a href=“Drug and Alcohol News Archive - Partnership to End Addiction”>Drug and Alcohol News Archive - Partnership to End Addiction)</p>
<p>MOWC’s son attended the private school from which my son graduated in 2007. I attended the funeral of the Black student who committed suicide in 2003 and at that funeral I saw another Black “scholarship” student from that ghetto in attendance. He was in my son’s class. He too rubbed shoulders with the sons of the Perot’s etc. during the day and lived in the ghetto at night. He attended Stanford on full scholarship.</p>
<p>My son’s senior year in HS, a sophomore got caught in a bust of the second largest cocaine dealer in our town. It was at Winter break and he was “uninvited” back within 48 hours during the break.</p>
<p>My point is that even at the most elite and well funded privates, the students are still just kids and some do drugs, cave to pressure, etc. But, those who make it through the process, without getting killed or caught, are better prepared because of the competitive pool of school mates (my S’s class had 88 members and over 50 of them were NM finalists or commended), the massive funding of these schools (endowment of $119,000,000 in 2007 for a total of less than 900 students) and the quality of the teachers and administrative staffs.</p>
<p>It also helps to have fabulous alums who can and do assist the students. [How</a> rocker Steve Miller came to mentor a high school junior in Texas - Philly.com](<a href=“Inquirer.com: Philadelphia local news, sports, jobs, cars, homes”>Inquirer.com: Philadelphia local news, sports, jobs, cars, homes)</p>
<p>Looking at the second link you added to your post # 175 after my post # 177, again POIH, it does NOT compare the incidence of substance misues in affluent vs poor schools. That is what you said, and that is what I am asking for documentation of. Your quote in post #179 says that they studied affluent kids in general, with no distinction, as you made above of their attendance at public vs private schools. The first refenrence you posted, some sound bite from some Ohio criminal defense atty’s website, is irrelevant.</p>
<p>Sooz-
I agree with your point, that kids shouldnt be kept from school activities because of events that occurred elsewhere. That said, most clubs, teams, sports, even permission to ride on the school bus, has conduct/behavior policies and releases that have to be signed, and consequences for actions that violate those policies.</p>
<p>07dad-
Thats an interesting article, but its a survey, not a study, and self-report is notoriously skewed.</p>
<p>07Dad- I was at the funeral, too! </p>
<p>As for boarding schools- my experience with several different schools and lots of information about many others is that there isn’t any more drug/alcohol use than at day schools (public or private), but it IS easier to get kicked out since you are on the clock 24/7. A day school student may have a beer in the evening with some friends while driving around or at someone’s house. A boarding student who gets caught bringing alcohol/drugs into the dorm might get booted. My son’s senior year at boarding school a kid (senior) was expelled from Exeter (not my son’s school) for a serious December alcohol violation which involved a fake ID and the police. He had never been in any trouble, and my son’s school took him in for his final semester of school. He was a model student-athlete and wound up at Columbia.</p>
<p>I agree that in general, affluent kids in high pressure school environments with peer pressure and means to pay for and access to substances are at risk for exposure to and potentially experimenting with substances. The statement I didn’t agree with, and was looking for data to support, was this
</p>
<p>I am sorry to read about the young man’s suicide. There are a number of attempts in our county each year, and some of them are private school students. I don’t know what the stats are in this area, but I don’t know of a single student who killed him/herself at my sons’ schools while at the school in the past 12 years. Two graduates did commit suicide after the first year in college from two private schools that I know well around here. It is a terrible thing that suicide rates do hit high levels as our kids start their entry into adulthood. I would not put the cause on isolated incidents on any school public or private. However, I do wonder when a school like the one near Palo Alto racks up stats in a short time span like it did. If that principal were a commanding officer in the military, he would have summarily dismissed from command regardless of reason for those suicides.</p>
<p>Look, I don’t think anyone here has said, “Don’t send your kid to private school, it will turn him into a drunk/druggie.” And I certainly wouldn’t suggest that public schools in poor communities don’t have drug problems. This is all largely besides the point for this discussion, since very few of the families we are talking about are choosing between general neighborhood public schools in poor urban neighborhoods and elite Northeastern prep schools.</p>
<p>What I would say is this: If you send your kid to an elite Northeastern private day school, along with all the benefits of the school be prepared to tolerate drinking and recreational drug use, if not by your child then by his or her friends, because that’s what happens. (And don’t kid yourself that your child will be immune. Some kids are, but I wouldn’t count on it.) It’s not a question of good vs. bad parenting, or of disciplined schools or not (although none of the schools I know really believe in strict discipline on issues like alcohol use out of school).</p>
<p>At the private schools:
– almost all the kids have access to money
– almost none of the kids have first- or second-hand experience with the destructive power of alcohol and drugs
– almost all of the parents drink socially, and many use recreational drugs socially
– the kids have lots of models for adults and older students who achieve great success without forgoing alcohol and drugs
– the kids don’t really form cliques; everyone socializes together, so their behavior is much more uniform
– the parents generally trust their kids; the dominant mode of parenting is relatively permissive
– the kids feel relatively secure about their futures
– the kids don’t believe that their futures will be ruined if they are caught with alcohol or drugs, and that belief proves valid in all but isolated cases</p>
<p>By contrast, when my kids attended a large urban public academic magnet high school, in a “bad” neighborhood but drawing students from all over the city:
– the majority of the kids had very little spending money
– many of the kids had relatives or home friends with serious drug or alcohol problems, and saw the destructiveness of drug culture every time they left their homes
– many kids saw the world as one in which most people were losers and very few got to be winners; losers drank or took drugs, and they desperately wanted to be winners
– many kids were from immigrant families and were deeply involved in a whole-family project to succeed in America
– many kids believed if they were caught with drugs or alcohol it would ruin their lives
– many kids were very religious (of various faiths)
– parenting styles were all over the lot, some so far from permissive as to make it all the way to abusive</p>
<p>As a result, there were substantial numbers of academically successful kids at the public school who did not use alcohol or drugs. And also substantial numbers who did, but fewer. And less successful kids who didn’t use alcohol or drugs, and less successful kids who drowned themselves in one or the other. All over the lot, but a very different culture compared to the private school(s). And since kids did fraternize across group lines, the whole experience was different even for the kids who drank, etc. If you wanted to do something with your straight-edge friends, it couldn’t involve drinking. </p>
<p>My kids – who were not anything like straight-edge – each had (almost) alcohol-free senior prom nights for that very reason. Hardly a tragedy! (I say “almost” because my daughter’s date was from her former private school, and I’m pretty certain he packed a little something for them to share, even though the group they were with was primarily non-drinkers.)</p>
<p>Some private schools aren’t that great, and some public schools, like magnet ones, are amazing. It really just depends.</p>
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<p>I think these are really broad generalizations, and I’m not sure if even applied very broadly they are correct. For instance, many private schools have financial aid and so there are poor kids there. Many kids have experienced the “destructive power”- a rich dad or mom can still be an alcoholic, and as I said they may not be rich at all. On the other hand, I don’t think that many parents, at private or public schools, use recreational drugs often, unless they are of the aforementioned self-destructive type. Many do drink recreationally, true, but most American adults do. As for the “models” thing, I’m not sure that is accurate as most people who are successful do forgo drugs, and I’m sure the exceptions that do not are found in either school. And for the uniform behavior, unless it is a school full of only rich white kids that all have parents who do drugs, that would actually cause less people to use drugs as I think most kids do not use drugs. The parental trust thing is true of certain cultures, and those cultures are found in public and private schools. “Secure futures” is not a reason to experiment or not to experiment, and the fear of getting caught would actually be more in private schools as you can get kicked out for that, whereas public schools have less strict rules, although still punish such behavior. To address the second points, many kids in public school, especially magnet schools, do have money; the destructive drug/alcoholic behavior is not limited to public school families, and as for the loser/winner thing that is true anywhere, it just depends on the particular student’s worldview; at the immigrant family point, a lot of private schools have large amounts of immigrant/minority students; in fact, at the one I go to white people are a minority. And for religion, many private schools are religious so the students tend to be more religious as well. Parenting styles are all over in private schools as well.</p>
<p>At my private school and any other that I’ve ever encountered, there were substantial numbers of academically successful kids at the public school who did not use alcohol or drugs and a few who did, not a substantial number. And less successful kids who didn’t use alcohol or drugs, but none or at worst a couple (successful or not) who drowned themselves in one or the other, and these kinds would usually be kicked out.</p>
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<p>Sure they can, Jym. For example: Our public school would throw anybody off an athletic team (and has done so) if there were evidence of drinking, even if it was a picture taken at a private party (not a school event) and posted on Facebook.</p>
<p>Who can forget the Fab Five McKinney, TX female cheerleaders who posed in front of the Condoms to Go store? They got in trouble at public school (sort of).</p>
<p>[Cheerleaders:</a> The Trail Of Cheers - Newsweek](<a href=“http://www.newsweek.com/2007/01/14/cheerleaders-the-trail-of-cheers.html]Cheerleaders:”>Cheerleaders: The Trail Of Cheers)</p>
<p>Apologies for being unclesr-- this thread has taken lot sof twists and turns. As sooz also addresses, participation in special events like team sports, schools outings, etc have required codes of conduct.</p>
<p>I agree that getting caught at boarding schools is a lot more probable . The same with the smaller prep schools where the classes are small and the teachers and staff are looking actively for such transgressions. </p>
<p>At the schools I know well, there is not looking the other way. Any suspicions are actively pursued. Some parents have complained of the what they feel are the “witch hunts” that occur when any suspicions surface and if someone is caught. </p>
<p>Getting in trouble outside of school even during non school activities is a no no too.</p>
<p>We live in an area that has many very expensive private schools nearby. The private schools have wonderful reputations. Our D atteneded the local public school in a solid middle class neighborhood. Her public school of 1400 students offers 23 AP classes, Multi variable calc and differential equations. They have amazing band, choir and orchestra programs, strong athletic support and art departments. Our D was accepted at four ivy league schools including H and Y. I would say this public school does a great job for students who want to succeed. We had five NMF this year. I am so happy with this public school and my D made great friends. Many of my friends who paid over 25K a year for private school did not have the opportunities our public school did. It’s all up to the student.</p>
<p>From post 194: Many of my friends who paid over 25K a year for private school did not have the opportunities our public school did. It’s all up to the student. </p>
<p>It’s up to the school. That’s fabulous that you have a great public high school. I certainly wish that for everyone. My S went to private school–7 of 45 in his graduating class were Merit scholars. In contrast there was one merit scholar in our whole county public school system. I certainly wouldn’t pay the money if I didn’t feel it was worth the return.
Faculty, parents, and peer pressure to excel all contribute to excellence–how do we translate that to public schools? Public school bureaucracy ties the hands of too many
parents and teachers who really want the best for students.</p>
<p>D went to both private and public elementary schools, private middle school, and is now at an urban high school with magnet programs. Over here, the reputations of some private schools exceed their actual quality and they try to sweep problems under the rug. At one highly regarded private, at graduation they announced that one girl would be attending a mid-tier UC – when in fact she was going to take a gap year (or more). This was their way to broadcast 100% college attendance. I’m pretty sure this girl never even applied to that school!</p>
<p>The private school kids are prepared for and attend private universities and LACs. The public school kids mostly go to UCs, CSUs, and CCs because they haven’t received counseling to go beyond that and the middle class kids are prepared for dealing with a wide variety of people. At D’s school, a handful each year go to Ivies and/or MIT. One program at this public school reportedly prepares kids well for the critical thinking in demanding schools, but I have no idea whether some of the reporters just happen to be brilliant no matter what!</p>
<p>At D’s HS which has at least half the kids eligible for free/reduced lunch, there simply isn’t the money around for expensive drugs like cocaine, and they aren’t likely to have the types of abused prescription drugs found in affluent areas like Adderall, Ritalin, Oxycontin, etc. However, there are kids who come to school drunk or high; they aren’t the ones who are college bound. I’ve heard that substance abuse is worse in the suburbs because there isn’t much to do other than party; I have no idea whether that is an urban myth.</p>
<p>“From cases I have known, drinking and drugs are prevalent at boarding schools and many kids have indeed been kicked out of these schools for these behaviors and have had to go to a public school instead.”</p>
<p>As a parent with experience with kids at BS, private HS and public HS, I would like to “clarify” this.
First of all, when an elite BS has a bust, it gets in the news. Private HS and public HS busts do not get news coverage much at all. In fact, the communities seem to cover things up and look the other way until someone gets killed or very sick, I have found. So there is a significant distortion in “reporting.” So it “appears” to happen more often at elite BS.
Secondly, let’s talk rules, enforcement, and consequences, which also can “distort” the appearance of frequency of such activity.
At BS, the students are all subject to one set of known rules, and the rules are in effect 24-7 (which I personally find refreshing and so much more healthy for the teens). The kids are on campus under the supervision of adults more of the time than the kids are who live at home. And when rules are broken, the BS has to deal with it. The level of discovery is higher than for local students, and then the rate of enforcement and punishment is higher. Again, that means the “more” events are public. Not necessarily that there is more prevalence of illegal activity.= in the first place.
Students at local day schools have school rules in efffect while they are at school, but then they have family rules, which vary considerably from home to home. AND the kids are out and about and on their own quite a bit, so much activity is NOT discovered. And many parents do NOT enforce their own rules.
Nor do the police!
My older D went to a local suburban private HS- every weekend there were huge parties with alcohol, etc, etc, all over the county, at homes of kids from both publics and privates. Some even had parents in attendance. And many parties were busted by the police. But there were never any legal consequences to the kids or the parents. Occasionally the private HS would get involved with the situation to counsel the families involved and pull in the student body.
Most of the local HS have breath testing at parties on campus, and also have lock-in rules.
My younger D, who attends one of those elite NE BS, has told me every summer that the drugs and drinking are much worse among her friends back at home than at her BS. She says that the peer pressure and community trust issues really make the BS kids think twice about breaking the universal and well-enforced rules. Kids at home are much freer, and their parents have varying policies and attitudes, so there are always places to go to “do it”, and it is hard to avoid finding it at just about any social event. While illegal activities obviously do occur at BS, I would say that such ubiquitousness or “prevalence” is NOT true at BS.</p>
<p>I feel the need to clarify and point out what is really happening at BS, as seen from the inside, compared to what happens with suburban private and public day HS students, which I also have personal experience with.</p>
<p>Here’s an article relevant to this discussion:
<a href=“At New York’s Private Schools, a Tutor for Every Class - The New York Times”>At New York’s Private Schools, a Tutor for Every Class - The New York Times;
<p>vinceh wrote: “The teachers have smaller total student work loads and can get more involved.”</p>
<p>And there it is. Our public school’s junior high teachers regularly teach about 95-120 students a semester and in the HS, it’s not much better. If a 9th grade teacher in this scenario has all of his 85-115 students (5 classes of 17-23 students each) write a multi-paragraph in-class essay on a Monday, and then maybe has to run a soccer practice for two hours after school, it is physically impossible to spend 15-20 minutes of quality time on each of those essays and return them within 1-2 days, let alone a week. And for those of you who will say, “Well, that teacher shouldn’t be coaching,” remember at many schools the interview to gain the job usually involves the question, “So…what can you coach”? Besides, even without any other extracurriculars detracting time, it is still not possible, and in many inner city publics, the total number of students shoots up to 120-140. With tea party types talking tax caps now, most states with quality public school systems will soon go the way of California, who once boasted the best public school system in the nation, but after a school tax cap was implemented a few years ago, watched that system get picked as clean to the bone as roadkill. It’s really sad.</p>
<p>2bornot2bivy wrote: “If you want to judge the quality of the high school look at where the top 5 % go to college but also look at the lower deciles. If the middle kids are going to impressive schools then you know its a great public or private high school.”</p>
<p>Not necessarily. What you know by this stat is that the COMMUNITY at large values attendence at more selective schools. There are plenty of public schools in our area where every year the top 10-20 have killer stats/EC’s to rival many of their top private school counterparts, BUT their list of schools cover mostly quality state schools and/or regionally respected privates. Those parents did not want to dish the extra cash (probably taking the best deal instead) or really do not have the view that attendance at an ivy or top gun LAC is that much of a benefit. Our school’s teachers and counselors can talk til they’re blue in the face, and if that’s the culture, so be it.</p>
<p>Thumper1 wrote: "Here is my sweeping generalization of the day…it’s amazing how much more involved FAMILIES are when they are paying out of pocket for schooling for their kids. Private high schools not only provide good schooling, but the also draw a very committed family unit…not just the student, but parent support too. It’s a broad generalization but there it is.</p>
<p>Having said that, my kids went to a semi-rural no-name small public high school which we felt was outstanding. They were challenged in high school, had ample opportunities for interesting learning experiences…and were very well prepared for college."</p>
<p>Here! Here! on both counts.</p>
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<p>Given that disadvantage in PS, would we say that a PS kid is a stronger candidate that a BS kid if their statistics are similar?</p>