This is an honest reply as tone sometimes doesn’t come across well in online posts. Was your post serious or said in jest?
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I have lost patience for convoluted academic analysis and writing over time. Really a waste of time. People trying to sound erudite. No respect for artificial scholarship. If people can’t distill things down, they don’t deserve my time.
Thank you for clarifying.
I’m not kidding. I guess I could read one text book and sleep in class and take my C and move on. I’m sure a student of history or many other subjects learns more outside of college than inside. I’m positive I have gained more knowledge of finance and economics by reading and listening post graduate school than my multiple courses I studied. And I never worked in the industry. It’s called a passion to learn.
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One of the best things about college for me was the exchange of ideas and the discussions. Some of my favorite memories were the hours long meals spent debating material presented in class. Those opportunities are lost if you are reading a book alone. Different perspectives are so important in learning.
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I’m really learning about people on this thread. So much superiority!
I can be taught to play the piano in a day, but I will probably suck at it.
I can learn how to do brain surgery too, if I just read a few books.
I can make a great movie because I have a cell phone!
I can write a bestseller because I can hold a pencil and read!
What is up with these denigrating comments? I’d love to see someone tell Meryl Streep, David Attenborough, Spike Lee, Kazuo Ishiguro that they learned insert name of discipline here so they can do whatever those people do just as well, without actually having to really learn it. Because they read a book or had a class in high school.
So it seems that people are only truly smart or relevant if they work with numbers, or earn a lot of numbers.
Anyone can learn ANYTHING at any age, but that doesn’t mean they will be good at it. SMH.
Perhaps the Humanities will remain relevant if people stop assuming that those majors are useless. Seems clear that part of the problem is perception.
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The anti-intellectualism rampant in this thread is a little bit disturbing. Not to mention the hubris.
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So often when I am reading the news, I find myself thinking about history (the famous quote paraphrased…History doesn’t repeat but it often rhymes). Sadly, the last few years have me reflecting on the French Revolution, Tulip Mania and the Venezuelan War of Independence (just to name a few things). I can’t imagine reading the news and having no historical framework in which to put new information in order to make sense of that information and recognize patterns and behaviors.
I still remember chuckling a few years ago when some ‘disruptors’ to the ride share business proposed expanding their offerings to not only serve individual customers, but larger groups. The idea being suggested was to get larger vehicles to transport more people at the same time, and set up a regular time schedule and route for those vehicles to travel. I laughed because the ‘disruptors’ had discovered - The Bus System. I’m sure there were lots of smart people in that room…who seemed to have no ability to place their own ideas into a larger societal structure. I cringe a bit still thinking of the time, energy, and yes, money wasted to come up with an idea that has existed for over 100 years. And yet - there it was.
I worry a lot when I see rules put upon what is or isn’t worth learning. It kind of reminds me of an Oprah episode talking about people with an unhealthy attitude to alcohol (some were users, some abusers, some addicted). One woman in particular talked about how she didn’t have a problem with drinking because she never took a drink before 5pm and implied that everyone had that rule or else they clearly had an issue with alcohol themselves.
When the alcohol abuse expert pointed out that lots of people don’t have rules about alcohol like that - the woman exploded! She demanded to know what kind of people were drinking before 5pm?!! The expert listed some off: people having a mimosa at brunch, or a beer at a barbeque, or a glass of wine with lunch. What the expert pointed out is that people who don’t have a fraught relationship with alcohol don’t have to put rules and restrictions around drinking. They aren’t thinking about how to make it ‘acceptable’. It doesn’t have some strong hold that affects their entire life nor do they plan their day around alcohol/drinking.
When people take it upon themselves to try to prescribe what is or isn’t worth learning, or how learning should take place - I wonder why they are having such a strong reaction. What is pushing that button? I hesitate to speculate why that happens, as I can only come up with fear. Fear of change, fear of not having control, fear of not knowing things others know or believe. But maybe there is some another explanation as to why some people think there are worthy things to learn and unworthy.
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I do find it interesting that the comment to which I was replying (“Anyone can learn the technical skills”) caused but a few bemused shrugs, yet soon as I suggest that its mirror image can be proffered, sparks start flying.
This asymmetry is, of course, not unique to this place, nor time.
My good friend marlowe1 brought up C. P. Snow’s mid-20th century essay “The Two Cultures” in a recent thread on a similar topic:
A good many times I have been present at gatherings of people who, by the standards of the traditional culture, are thought highly educated and who have with considerable gusto been expressing their incredulity at the illiteracy of scientists. Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare’s? I now believe that if I had asked an even simpler question – such as, What do you mean by mass, or acceleration, which is the scientific equivalent of saying, Can you read? – not more than one in ten of the highly educated would have felt that I was speaking the same language. So the great edifice of modern physics goes up, and the majority of the cleverest people in the western world have about as much insight into it as their neolithic ancestors would have had.
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Perhaps that is the fear the humanities academics have-why are they telling people what to study? Let people major in whatever they want and deal with the consequences personally. I do not think the STEM folks are the ones afraid here. For the most part, as a group they have among the fewest regrets.
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I am not sure that measuring the level of ‘regret’ someone has when answering a survey about their college major has anything to do with regretting the learning they did.
They might regret that their degree wasn’t worth as much as they thought it would be (monetary ROI), or they might regret having taken debt out that they struggle to repay, or they might look back and wish they had chosen something else now that they know themselves better and not what they imagine knowing at 17, 18, 19 etc.
But are any of these surveys asking people whether they regret taking the courses they took? Whether they regret the knowledge they gained? Are they asking them what they wish they had done?
Maybe people who are more prone to self doubt and introspection choose, in aggregate, majors that explore those issues more directly? Am I miserable because I listen to Pop music, or do I listen to Pop music because I am miserable? (Hat tip High Fidelity)
I loved what I studied/learned while at college. And yet, if someone asked me if i would do the same thing today - I’d definitely say no. In the decades since college, I have learned so much more and would definitely go in a different direction than I did the first time if I was going to spend another 4 years studying. But that doesn’t mean I don’t see value and lasting benefits to what I did study and major in at the time.
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I do not understand your perspective that we should guide or perhaps force more people into studying certain subjects which presumably they chose not to study. Who are you, or the humanities faculty, to demand everyone study music, for example? Why bemoan the lack of music majors? Some enjoy music, some do not-other than as a minimal gen ed requirement, few will choose to continue to study it. Maybe some will wish they had later and will pick up the study in midlife ( tho this is exceedingly rare). There are plenty of opportunities to study it throughout life if one wishes to do so. Most do not. If that upsets some, they should study music themselves, but not foist it upon others.
Personally, I think those not conversant with basic physics are poorly-educated. You may feel the same about music. To each his/her own ( by the way, I wasnt a STEM major)
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Whose perspective are you talking about? Has anyone said people should be forced to learn something specific? Have I missed a huge piece of this conversation?
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For the same reason I had to take math classes in college, I am guessing some other college might require a student to take a music class. I hated every math class I ever took. Still had to do it.
But I use basic math most days. My husband almost never reads a book and doesn’t do much writing. Should he have never had to read or write any papers in college because he doesn’t like either?
Really?
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I guess I’m confused about whether we are talking about general education/common core (K-12 and/or college) or if we are talking about the idea that people are being forced to major in something specific.
As I mentioned above, most schools have gen ed requirements which include some humanities course. For most people, apparently that is enough to satisfy them. Humanities faculty would like to increase demand ( presumably not just from a self-interested position for their jobs) but students are not, at this point, willing to increase study of these subjects. Many posters have explained in great detail why students have made that decision, and why it may very well be rational for them, or even for the vast majority of students today. Perhaps you do not think they are acting in their own, or society’s best interests in doing so, but that is their choice.
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I think we’re straying from the topic again. I don’t think (or don’t want to think) that anyone is suggesting that humanities classes and majors cease to exist. Nor is anyone saying that about social or natural sciences or applied fields. I don’t think we need to battle each other on the worth of any of those areas; they are all valuable.
The decreasing number of students majoring in the humanities means there is a decreasing percentage of the population that possess the degree of strength provided by a rigorous, in-depth humanities education and that there are fewer opportunities (via academia posts) for research into humanities-related subjects. Just as there was a need for improved STEM education 20 years ago, there is a need for improved humanities education now.
This brings us back to the original question of the thread: what does society and the academy need to do in order to improve a humanities education in college? If individuals thought a humanities education was more worthwhile, there would probably be more humanities majors.
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I just wanted to point out that the most reported “regret” questionnaire about college majors surveyed 1,500 users of the website ziprecruiter in 2022.
Ziprecruiter also did a survey of 5,225 users who self-identified as college grads in June 2019. This survey found the most regretted majors to be:
English and Foreign languages - 42%
Biological and Physical Sciences - 35%
Education -31%
Social Sciences and Law - 29%
Communications - 27%
Those seem like fairly low percentages for regrets on an online board matching job seekers with business employers. Also, only the first category is humanities. I actually don’t think we should put much stock in any of ziprecruiter’s surveys as their samples are not large or random. There are other issues with this data, such as: Would you use ziprecruiter to find a government or university job? Why is a K-12 teacher on ziprecruiter? Who put Law as their major?
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The brightest grad student I’ve ever supervised majored in english in the honors program at an underwhelming state school. He did his master’s in a clinical field and successfully worked for a few years.
Then he decided to do a PhD in a totally unrelated field (physiology). Our lab took a big gamble by taking him on but we had a good feeling about him. Some of the people in the physiology department were outright snotty to him. Then he started blowing them away with his performance – he was top of every class despite having almost no background in any of it. And he finished his PhD in about half the time it takes most of them. This was all due to his hard work and his fantastic critical thinking and general academic preparation and intellect.
And his writing – it’s a dream! What an absolute treat it was to read and edit his work. He was so far out of the norm for a science student, and wrote better than some science profs I know.
Send me those english majors any day! A fantastic mind and a true delight.
To answer the original question: we need, at the least, people to recognize the value of the humanities. And for STEM people to get off their high horses and stop thinking we have the monopoly on relevance/value/whatever.
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If the decreasing number of humanities majors were taking place in some kind of vacuum, fine, but it isn’t. It’s happening in a time and place where K-12 schools often don’t offer humanities topics that inspire students and poorly teach the topics that are included; where the real cost of public colleges has skyrocketed; where high school students are lucky to share their single counselor with only 300 other students; and where students are rightly worried about finding work that will allow them to get health insurance and someday buy a home.
This isn’t about pushing people toward Major X. It’s about seeing the decline of humanities majors as a symptom of unhealthy systems and pressures that are shaping student paths. I want to try to fix those systems.
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