"How did HE Get In?"

Parents Forum
2421

<p>The interesting thing is that it is Daniel who says that early on, and yet, it was at an interview to see if he was on the spectrum. As the video progresses, it becomes clear this was just a defense mechanism. He loves his mother and listens to her, to his GF, later wife. He really wants to connect.</p>

<p>He is very human. I think he felt interogated and went to his comfort zone, there. but I don’t think he would say something like that in an interview. the Saul character on the other hand is awful, and the kids don’t like him either. The whole thing is a fascinating look into this world for me. I’m watching the hard problems about the Americans in the same year, right now.</p>

<p>They should put this on TV. I really appreciate getting to see this.</p>

2422

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<p>He doesn’t sound too different from hardcore engineering/CS nerd friends from HS or work who feel anyone who can’t figure out Freebsd or Gentoo/Slackware Linux via #bash shell* are “100% complete morons”. </p>

<p>Ironically, one of them now works for one computer technology company popularly known for a GUI-based operating system with a household name. Boy did I and other non-hardcore/non-techie friends really rub that fact into him for years. :D</p>

<ul>
<li>A.K.A. No X Windows allowed. “Graphical User Interfaces are for chumps”.</li>
</ul>

2423

<p>CA, yes, I think it’s important we not draw conclusions that these (Brit) kids are representative of all brilliant math kids. Nor did we see whether they have other sorts of skills that might round the edges.</p>

2424

<p>Oh, my. Just watched the link to the Hard Problems episode and it had me smiling throughout. Great kids. Thanks for pointing us at these. I’ll try to catch the whole of both.</p>

2425

<p>Those kids kind of…inspire me.</p>

2426

<p>What I’m thinking about USAMO is that to get to it one has to do well on AMC and AIME that are both multiple-choice tests under time constraints. They probably identify talented kids, but not those who are simply bad test takers with anxiety problems, etc. Other math contests I’m familiar with in US correlate with abilities to do relatively easy problems very quickly. Some kids have it, others have to practice.
I read somewhere on CC an observation that math majors at Harvard come from 2 tracks: USAMO and those who dual-enroll in high level math courses at a local university. I would think, because math ability takes a lot of time and “persistent effort” (as someone said here) to develop, it would be more efficient to go the second route, if that’s possible.</p>

2427

<p>alh: Well, bless your heart for your kind words, and just when I thought I’d alienated just about everyone. I’m sorry you don’t accept PM’s.</p>

<p>How would it be if we reframed QM’s point and raised this question, "How do we identify the people who could most benefit from the best science and technology education we can provide? And how do we identify the people who can potentially benefit society the most if we make this education available to them?</p>

<p>I think the idea of “auto-admit” is a red herring and not really what QM meant to be at issue. I realize that I’m speaking for her and maybe shouldn’t be.</p>

<p>If we frame the question that way the similarity to Julliard, School of the NYC Ballet becomes more clear.</p>

<p>As to folks who only want to learn from those who understand math better than they? Well, that’s what the humanities are for to inculcate a different, non-quantifiable set of values.</p>

<p>And yes, scientist may well be the ones to give us amazing medicines and technologies and well as weapons, but they may need assists from humanities types, poets and ethicists, to help us decide how and when to use them.</p>

2428

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<p>Actually, the Goths, Huns, Vandals, and other barbarian groups in both Western Europe and north of China all proved one can succeed without any of the above. </p>

<p>:D</p>

<p>To be fair to the Goths…their sense of ethics were actually better than the Romans. Roman corruption and mistreatment of the Goths in the mid-370s was what prompted them to start their revolts in the first place.</p>

2429

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<p>I would not go that far, but I think smart people should learn how to use computers using the command line (present on not just Unix but Windows) as well as a GUI, since sometimes it is faster to use the command line. A competent programmer or quant is comfortable with the command line.</p>

2430

<p>Sorry for being so far behind the discussion–very interesting recent posts, but it will take me quite a while to catch up.</p>

<p>Earlier on, lookingforward asked whom I would displace, in order to admit a small number 10-15 of hyper-talented mathematicians. I suggested displacing the students who do not work very hard in the first semester, on the grounds that the “grades do not count.” </p>

<p>In post #2238 by lookingforward and in post #2339 by cobrat, the point was made that students once admitted should not be weeded out after one semester. I agree. I was not arguing about asking the students to leave after a semester–instead, I was suggesting that they should not have been admitted, to begin with.</p>

<p>There were two qualities combined in the students I suggested it would be better not to admit: not working hard, and the motivation being that the “grades didn’t count.” (So if a student has a death in the family, a death of a friend, an illness, an accident, or other circumstance that reasonably prevents the student from working hard, I have no objection in that case.) If the student is grade-motivated, though, I would seriously wonder whether the student belongs at MIT. The knowledge on offer is similar, whether the course is graded or not.</p>

<p>Many of the posts after that pointed out that people in other professions, small-business owners, entrepreneurs, agricultural workers and others also worked very hard (e.g., PG #2355, #2363, #2365, #2368, oldfort #2367, Marsian #2370, perhaps others).</p>

<p>I agreed with this (#2375, #2379).</p>

<p>But how does this make it “better” for a student who was admitted to MIT to avoid working in the first semester “because the grades do not count”? I think that, if anything, it makes it worse.</p>

<p>Do you think that the admissions personnel are unable to identify the applicants who will probably not work hard in the first semester?</p>

2431

<p>mythmom
“How do we identify the people who could most benefit from the best science and technology education we can provide? And how do we identify the people who can potentially benefit society the most if we make this education available to them?”</p>

<p>Very good questions. I would start with the first one.</p>

2432

<p>At the end of the “hard problems” video, they show where everyone ended up. It seems they all went to Harvard, except one who went to Stanford. One young man was drafted into the Korean army.</p>

<p>Thanks to those who posted the links to those videos! It was such a great glimpse into a culture I knew nothing about.</p>

2433

<p>geomom in #2400 posted about her brother who took almost 90 units each term in the first year at MIT (ungraded at that time). I regard this as taking wonderful advantage of the “no grades” opportunity. geomom’s brother sounds like a person who was motivated by eagerness to learn as much as possible. Clearly, if there had been grades, taking close to 90 units at a time would have been a really poor idea.</p>

<p>With regard to geomom’s other point, that her brother wound up with a significantly lower GPA than she–that is not so surprising.</p>

<p>It is possible that geomom’s brother learned more (net) than he would have, had he stuck with a more standard course schedule–that makes it hard to say that he shouldn’t have tried it. On the other hand, it would take a truly exceptional genius to master the material in 90 hours of coursework per semester, and the work really is foundational for the future.</p>

2434

<p>Quant, in 2238, I asked this:
*And how does that work? Fail them out in December? Even those admitted on quantitative brilliance? First semester becomes pass or out? Leave their spots empty and add that many seats to March decisions? What if a prof protests or the kid has an excuse? Then it’s OK to get subjective? Think how this would work. *</p>

<p>I didn’t make any point, I asked you to think this through. </p>

<p>How do you propose to identify the kids that should be moved aside for math test winners? </p>

<p>Now you say, some kids would be “better not to admit.” How do you propose to figure this out? Which kids might not take first semester seriously or run naked through campus (whatever?) And how do you figure which students simply didn’t work hard because there was some crisis? <a href=“So%20if%20a%20student%20has%20a%20death%20in%20the%20family,%20a%20death%20of%20a%20friend,%20an%20illness,%20an%20accident,%20or%20other%20circumstance%20that%20reasonably%20prevents%20the%20student%20from%20working%20hard,%20I%20have%20no%20objection%20in%20that%20case.”>i</a> * CC is full of kids who want to explain their issues to adcoms- how do these get filtered?</p>

<p>Mythmom has now suggested, “I think the idea of “auto-admit” is a red herring and not really what QM meant to be at issue” As a scientist, I’d like you to think this through. Otherwise, it’s just “off the top of one’s head” stuff.</p>

<p>I’m just going to keep it that simple, for now.</p>

2435

<p>lookingforward, you originally asked whom I would suggest not admitting, in order to accommodate the small number of students I would like to see admitted. My answer about the students who did not work hard was addressed to this question. I am sorry if I did not express the point more clearly–I didn’t change it.</p>

<p>Are the admissions staff unable to figure out which students are grade-motivated and will not work hard in the absence of grades? </p>

<p>(Re mollibatmit’s post: Absolutely, I understand that students work much harder in later years–I have no complaint about an adjustment period. I just mean to refer to people who can’t muster sufficient interest in the courses to put in a reasonable amount of effort in the absence of grades.)</p>

2436

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<p>They can’t even identify them after they have graduated from MIT. Students don’t fill out time logs, and in any case, what matters is how much they learn, not how many hours they put in. What admissions officers can do is look at what predicts grades at MIT and perhaps at what predicts participation in the Undergraduate Research Opportunities Program (UROP).</p>

2437

<p>“run naked through campus”</p>

<p>Some colleges have rituals which might mean everyone needs to be thrown out!</p>

<p>Rice has such a ritual.</p>

<p>[Baker</a> 13 incident unfair for Baker student - The Rice Thresher - Rice University](<a href=“http://www.ricethresher.org/baker-13-incident-unfair-for-baker-student-1.2704845#.UUni-x2TyJQ]Baker”>http://www.ricethresher.org/baker-13-incident-unfair-for-baker-student-1.2704845#.UUni-x2TyJQ)</p>

2438

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<p>Going back to the “original” question, one could consider an additional variable used by admissions’ officer in deciding whom to accept or reject. In addition to looking at the above-named UROP, adcoms might very well develop a sense of whom will be ADDING to the college community during their stay at the school. Of course, this is a general comment and not solely directed at MIT. </p>

<p>The above might explain why the admissions decisions appear to be crapshoots or plainly unfair to the small contingent who holds an excessive focus on academic achievement, especially the individual ones. </p>

<p>And, fwiw, as unfair as it may seem, schools might very look at the future contributions that extend well beyond the 4-6 school years, including the possible strong connections to the school as an alum or … donor. </p>

<p>In a way this also highlights that not all achievements or EC are equal. A school can and should identify the ones that solely benefitted the applicants versus the community. Candidates that exhibited a strong sense of community should be expected to continue on the same path; just as adcoms might have learned that the applications that are mostly resume-building exercises will have a high chance of delivering a candidate that plans on taking and … not giving back in any form. And they might also have learned that the K-12 star musicians or aspiring intel-nobel-prize winners hardly pursue their passion as soon as they are admitted at Prestigious U. </p>

<p>After all, there is a danger in assuming that the adcoms are clueless or operate in a vacuum. And … do not learn from the admission mistakes!</p>

2439

<p>TPG, the Baker Boys should have considered going to Cal. Running naked in or without a parade is common fodder in HippieLand. :)</p>

2440

<p>QM, going all the way back, several times you have said, in essence, what’s it to MIT to add a measly 10-15 kids, maybe 10% of their freshman class? Shavras pointed out there isn’t room to add 10% more. </p>

<p>So, in 2254, I asked: “which kids would MIT move aside to make room for math contest winners?” And in 2342, we got: some of the students admitted because their “fun” personalities tipped the decision in their direction are in the group that doesn’t work very hard in the first semester… Etc. </p>

<p>Perhaps you really did mean, catch this in the admit process. I took it to mean, those kids whose personalities tipped the decision and then disappoint. </p>

<p>There are plenty of ways to see whether a kid has the pattern of challenges, accomplishments, variety in experiences, etc, that suggest short- and long-term potential that will fit this environment and lead to future successes. Ways to glean what their judgment skills and maturity are. Whether they are bright lights or someone else is pushing the buttons. But few ways to absolutely predict what a kid will actually do, once Mom and Dad drop him off.</p>