<p>Going back to Pizzagirl’s question in post #1889,
I will now attempt to provide the best answer I can to that question: Sorry, I cannot answer it.</p>
<p>Next, I will attempt to provide a substandard answer to that question. It will take a few posts, which may be somewhat disconnected.</p>
<p>First, a set of disclaimers: I can only suggest a means of identifying good schools for a “top” student who is interested in an academic career. Far from every “top” student has that interest. Many other careers can be highly rewarding intellectually, and no doubt more rewarding financially.</p>
<p>I can only write about what I know, or can realistically surmise.</p>
<p>Second disclaimer: I am much more familiar with large research universities than with LAC’s. I know a few tremendously bright and creative people who have been undergraduates at Reed, Carleton, Harvey Mudd, and Kenyon. This is not a snobbishly exclusive list, this is just the subset that I happen to know. I don’t know much at all about LAC’s.</p>
<p>Third disclaimer: I don’t think that any comments can be made about a university overall, in most cases, even restricting attention to the “super-top” student who is interested in an academic career.</p>
<p>There is often a halo effect that leads universities to be highly rated across the board, based on a person’s knowledge of a single department or a few departments. Hence Princeton’s medical school and law school are both often highly ranked in surveys. (Neither exists.)</p>
<p>A few good alternatives, identified by field of interest:</p>
<p>Carnegie-Mellon for computer science and related areas. I believe that mathmom’s older son picked them over Harvard. 100% sensible choice.
Northwestern for nanoscience. Tied top, in my opinion.
University of California, Santa Cruz for nuclear astrophysics (not to mention the beauty of the setting)
Cornell and Duke for mathematics. Duke has a particularly good recent record in educating women mathematicians. If you are female and would rather not be in advance math classes with only 15-20% women (if that), Duke merits a look.</p>
<p>If a student is contemplating attending a large research university, here is how I would suggesting picking among them. This may possibly be useful for this year’s seniors, deciding among universities, or for high school juniors. It is more or less the path that the Mech family followed together (well, except for DogMech).</p>
<p>(The plan assumes that a few fields have been identified for a possible major. Students do shift. Many do. Some go into fields that they had never previously considered. Can’t really help there. On the other hand, some students might have disparate fields as possibilities, but have a small enough set that the suggestions are workable.)</p>
<p>First, take a look at the National Academy of Sciences ratings of graduate programs in the field (approximately corresponding to a department or major). These rankings are based on graduate research, but I think they are relevant for the “super-top” student. If you look at a single institution across fields, and you’ve never looked at this report before, you may be surprised by the spread in rankings across departments.</p>
<p>With all due respect, what is your native language, QM?</p>
<p>I can’t draw any hard-and-fast line based on the national rankings. I will say for sure that a “super-top” undergraduate student is likely to have a different experience at a university that is among the top 10 in the field, as opposed to a university that is ranked 50-100.</p>
<p>There are fine universities ranked 50-100 or even well below in any given field, and a student who is sufficiently determined (= pigheaded, approximately) can do well coming from pretty much anywhere. With a good undergrad record and research experience, many grad schools will welcome the student. The student may need to do <em>a lot</em> of work on his/her own to be ready for a top grad school–cannot necessarily rely on the classes to provide opportunities.</p>
<p>Mathematics, jym626. :)</p>
<p>In #1906, “advance math classes” should be “advanced math classes.”
In #1900, “continue” should be “continued.” Would like to blame a sticky “d” on my keyboard. Actually, just sloppy proof-reading.</p>
<p>Sentence fragments are deliberate.</p>
<p>The reason that the grad rankings matter for a “super-top” undergrad: They reflect (to some extent, anyway) the quality of the research, and tend to reflect the insight, inventiveness, command of the field, and breadth of perspective of the faculty members. They will often affect the instrumentation that an undergrad student has access to. They will affect the undergrad research experiences that are offered. If a student is at an LAC or a university that is not top in a field, he/she can pick up extra research experience in the summers–e.g., Caltech offers summer programs-- but I think it is often better if top-flight undergrad research can be pursued year-round. They will affect the type of grad students that the undergrad has as friends. They will affect the grad course offerings that the undergrad can take. Taking grad courses is very common, even at HYPSM+C.</p>
<p>It will be a while before I have the opportunity to post suggestions on narrowing the field, once identified.</p>
<p>Quantmech - what do you see as the difference for a super-top undergrad at a 50-100 school? This is exactly my son’s situation right now and so far he’s been mostly happy with the education he’s getting. He’s taking grad classes, has the attention of the professors in the department, has been offered research opportunities, etc. We both think he will come out of there in a good position for admittance to the more elite grad schools. (he does want to stay in academia) What do you think he is missing out on?</p>
<p>(Cross posted with your last reply where you answered!)</p>
<p>Was a serious question, QM. Would help to understand.</p>
<p>Based on the fact that Berkeley grads seem to dominate faculty at most other top engineering schools in the nation, I humbly suggest Berkeley be at the top of every student’s list. They will be invariably taught by Berkeley grads everywhere else anyway.</p>
<p>Going to a selective liberal arts college does not hinder getting a PhD in one of the sciences, but it may do so for engineering:</p>
<p>[nsf.gov</a> - NCSES Baccalaureate Origins of S&E Doctorate Recipients - US National Science Foundation (NSF)](<a href=“http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/]nsf.gov”>http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf08311/)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>“The reason that the grad rankings matter for a “super-top” undergrad: They reflect (to some extent, anyway) the quality of the research, and tend to reflect the insight, inventiveness, command of the field, and breadth of perspective of the faculty members. They will often affect the instrumentation that an undergrad student has access to. They will affect the undergrad research experiences that are offered. If a student is at an LAC or a university that is not top in a field, he/she can pick up extra research experience in the summers–e.g., Caltech offers summer programs-- but I think it is often better if top-flight undergrad research can be pursued year-round. They will affect the type of grad students that the undergrad has as friends. They will affect the grad course offerings that the undergrad can take. Taking grad courses is very common, even at HYPSM+C.”</p>
<p>Can’t agree with you more, QM. </p>
<p>For PhD admission in my department, we almost always favor applicants from institutions with strong graduate programs in related fields.</p>
<p>What happened to #11-49 schools?</p>
<p>And believe it or not, pigheadedness, in all its forms, applies to many fields, not just stem.</p>
<p>"Based on the fact that Berkeley grads seem to dominate faculty at most other top engineering schools in the nation, I humbly suggest Berkeley be at the top of every student’s list. They will be invariably taught by Berkeley grads everywhere else anyway. "</p>
<p>Absolutely! </p>
<p>If an eighteen year old is talented, driven, independent (capable of handling large class size), Berkeley offers as good a undergrad education as any institutions.</p>
<p>Berkeley is ranked in the top 5 in many fields.</p>
<p>jym626–My native language actually is English. If I don’t write well, it’s because I have been writing mainly science for many years. Isaac Asimov supposedly wrote “The Endochronic Properties of Thiotimoline” (a mock science article) a little ahead of his Ph.D. thesis, because he wasn’t sure that he could write badly enough to write an acceptable thesis otherwise.</p>
<p>“Berkeley is ranked in the top 5 in many fields.”</p>
<p>It is much more easier to get into since they accept a lot more students than those with lottery numbers.</p>
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</p>
<p>The fall-off is gradual as you might expect.</p>
<p>I will point out one problem, though. Sometimes grad classes, even at universities with excellent research departments, aren’t that well-done. This is especially true in lab-based fields because profs want their grad students spending their time in the lab (and perhaps expect that their learning will take place in the lab,) so the classes aren’t always taken seriously. However, the consequence of this is that you can’t say to an undergrad that they can just take grad classes to equalize the difference between an elite school and a school that is just decent. </p>
<p>In other fields, like physics and math, the grad classes play a more prominent role in the education of grad students, so they are taken more seriously.</p>