<p>“I admit I brought up Tulia as it applies to the current state of the playing field in the U.S. Do you really believe this criminal attack does the same?”</p>
<p>My story shows the double standard that exists in our society. When a white guy kills a black guy out of hate, it is an act of hate and racism. When the roles are reversed, neither apply according to our justice system.</p>
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</p>
<p>You know zip. My son’s average is below the 90 you quote, and he still takes four AP classes per semester. Perhaps there is more going on in the world than you know about or understand?</p>
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</p>
<p>My story explained why we still need AA. I’ll repeat-</p>
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</p>
<p>That’s why we need AA. It was (part of ) my justification for AA. The full justification (for me) is “The field isn’t level yet.”.</p>
<p>and then I asked you this
</p>
<p>I also pointed out the broad group of bad actors , some government actors , in the Tulia story. </p>
<p>Now what did your story have to do with AA again?</p>
<p>“You know zip. My son’s average is below the 90 you quote, and he still takes four AP classes per semester. Perhaps there is more going on in the world than you know about or understand?”</p>
<p>Gee, we have yet ANOTHER personal attack. Another “you don’t know anything” type of post. If you people know so much, how come not one of you has found a 2400 URM rejected/deferred from a college? </p>
<p>My school is very selective when it comes to AP classes. Students need to be approved for an AP class. For my AP Poli Sci class, students need to have a 90 average or more to qualify for it. Otherwise, you take the regular American Government class. </p>
<p>To take classes through St. John’s University at my school, you must have at leats an 1050 on the SAT and an 85 average overall. These are strict cutoffs. That’s how it works at my school. I have yet to see anyone get selected for a class because of AA.</p>
<p>Still waiting for that 2400 URM. Since you people are so smart and “I don’t know zip,” let’s see the 2400 URM that was rejected. Don’t any of you AA defenders have one?</p>
<p>hepstar, you may have missed these. </p>
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</p>
<p>Yo Hepstar – if you want an equivalent example you need to find an example of A URM WITH 2400 SATS WHO WAS DEFERRED TO THE RD POOL. Not rejected, DEFERRED. I am assuming you know the difference? You sure are being hard to reach on this point. (If I thought it was polite here to increase one’s font size I would have done so, but I don’t so I didn’t. 
)</p>
<p>But I think curm’s post #66 pretty much sums it up. You are alone in beating this horse.</p>
<p>I didn’t miss them. What I have been trying to say all along is that the 2400 girl’s Asian race was a factor in her deferral. You, along with many others, said otherwise. Therefore, I asked the question: “Have any of you heard of a URM rejected/deferred with the same academic credentials as the 2400 girl?” It is a question that hasn’t been answered yet. If AA played no factor in Liming Luo’s deferral, then there would be URMs with perfect SAT scores getting rejected. You have yet to find one, which doesn’t do much for your argument’s credibility.</p>
<p>Yes, I know the differenc between deferred and rejected. What about Jian Li though. He was REJECTED from MIT, Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, and UPenn. He aslo has perfect SAT scores and he is also Asian. See the pattern here.</p>
<p>
Although I have every expectation that I will fail , I will try one more time. </p>
<p>The girl was not discriminated against because she was Asian. BUT, I don’t believe anyone here will argue that a URM does not get a hook in elite college admissions. URM is clearly a hook. The Asian girl did not get this hook. Neither did my kid. Neither did the vast majority of other applicants. Why should the Asian kid get that hook? Why should my kid get that hook? Do we need AA? Obviously not. </p>
<p>Are you seriously arguing that the Asian girl is being treated unfairly when she is being treated like everyone else EXCEPT URM’s (and other hooked candidates) in admissions?</p>
<p>"What I have been trying to say all along is that the 2400 girl’s Asian race was a factor in her deferral. "</p>
<p>Maybe. Or maybe the 2400 was the factor. My D got into HYP with less than 2400, and she is not URM.</p>
<p>
No. There is not a pattern. You have one Asian 2400 SAT applicant rejected from MIT (and Princeton), one deferred from MIT, and I have two from my son’s class who were accepted to MIT, one of whom is now attending Princeton instead. Does that balance out? </p>
<p>There is so much more to an application than merely perfect SAT scores. I know for a fact that MIT starts by giving a look at SATs and says, “Oh, in range. Now let’s see what else this person is about.” 2400 doesn’t raise any eyebrows at many of these schools. It’s the REST of the application and the rest of the applicant’s presentation of themselves and how it is supported (or not) by the rest of the materials that matters. And neither you nor any of us will see the rest of that app and be part of the discussions that went on – we can’t read their essays and recs and put it all into context. Since all you have is their SATs and a list of ECs, you’re basing an admissions decision on those plus race. That’s just not realistic. (Why are we having to say this for the umpteenth time again?)</p>
<p>You manage to gloss over the fact that Jian Li was accepted and matriculated at Yale, by the way. Awwww, poor guy. I don’t feel sorry for him.</p>
<p>I think hepstar may be a little more radical in his/her beliefs than some. I think it MIGHT be that hepstar believes that “Asians” deserve to be treated the same as URMs are treated in the admissions process. hepstar wants the hook. </p>
<p>I’ve asked the questions so I hope we are about to find out.</p>
<p>If all hepstar wanted me to admit was that URM’s get a hook that Asians don’t get at super-selective schools - I admitted that a long time ago. Double standard? Absolutely. That’s what a hook is. My kid didn’t get one either. So?</p>
<p>I don’t think this is some big hush-hush secret.</p>
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<a href=“http://admitspit.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/tag/rejected/[/url]”>http://admitspit.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/tag/rejected/</a></p>
<p>I can’t think of why anyone (race is inconsequential here) would want to post that they have a 2400 and were rejected somewhere. You’re just not going to get that kind of evidence.</p>
<p>Wow. After reading this thread, and as an Asian-American, I think Hepstar has single-handedly turned me into a pro-AA supporter. Not because of facts or logical reasoning or any nonsense like that, but out of sheer spite.</p>
<p>To address the “Oh, it’s not fair that people got screwed out of admissions at school X because of what possibly might be their race but might be their other factors as well” issue … as the philosopher Jagger once said, “You can’t always get what you want.” (For those of you who get the House reference, I say it with all of Hugh Laurie’s snarkiness).</p>
<p>You know what, I don’t think Asians should be categorized as URMs. I’m Korean-American. Plenty of us out there filling out applications, sending them off to colleges (granted, I’m already in college…) You gain admissions based on the merit of your actions, not by some odd technicality that categorizes ORM Asians as a priority. The greater the odds, the more obstacles you face – the sweeter the victory. Cliche, I know, but I’m a firm believer in it.</p>
<p>'Course, I don’t have any empirical evidence to prove what I’m saying, but this is about the umpteenth AA-related thread I’ve read, and I needed to put in my two cents.</p>
<p>Until someone can provide that evidence, there is no doubt that Liming Luo was discriminated against because she was Asian. If college was really the “level playig field” that AA strives to provide, there would be at least one 2400 URM reject/deferral to go along with the numerous Asian ones. Yet none of you have found one. Let me repeat this so it sinks in:</p>
<p>NONE OF YOU HAVE FOUND ONE!</p>
<p>Originally posted by Curmudgeon:</p>
<p>“I support affirmative action in education and in the workplace.”</p>
<p>later on:</p>
<p>“Do we need AA? Obviously not.”</p>
<p>I can see that Curmudgeon likes to switch his/her poinion when it is convenient for him/her.</p>
<p>“I think it MIGHT be that hepstar believes that “Asians” deserve to be treated the same as URMs are treated in the admissions process.”</p>
<p>Wrong again. I believe that the hook of URM should be eliminated from the admissions process all together. It is an unearned hook, unlike solid EC’s and high test scores. </p>
<p>Legacy admissions, although, just as corrupts as AA IMO, can nevere be done away with, simply because money talks. Money has immesurable power in society. If you workerd for a big-time college and parents of a mediocre applicant offered you millions of dollars if you would admit their child, it would he hard to turn them away. AA is a product of the American government and can always be eliminated.</p>
<p>“Wow. After reading this thread, and as an Asian-American, I think Hepstar has single-handedly turned me into a pro-AA supporter.”</p>
<p>No offense, but this is easy to say if you got into Georgetown ;).</p>
<p>Personally, I find the OP’s desire to debate this issue worrisome. So what? Like many have said – you don’t know the bigger picture. Anyone obsessed with pegging the merit of admissions on academics and test scores alone – well, that defeats the purpose of holistic admissions. We just don’t know enough about the applicant to know what Paul Harvey calls, well, “the Rest of the Story.” </p>
<p>Take Princeton. For every 7 Hispanic students, there are almost double the number of Asian students, nearly nine times as many Caucasian students, 3 more African-American students, and only one Native American. Yet “AA opponents” (I wouldn’t even call it AA – just a diversification of a particular admissions class – not diversity of race, creed, or ethnicity, but a diversification based on experience) – are so quick to single out the one Hispanic student who happened to have a slightly lower SAT score than the brilliant Asian valedictorian with a 2400 SAT score. What about the other Asians with lower scores who may have been admitted to Princeton who weren’t turned away because they offered something unique to the university? What about the other ORMs who may have been admitted to Princeton who weren’t turned away but their grades/SAT combo HAPPENED to be lower than the URM. Why aren’t we identifying them and preparing to tar and feather them as well? </p>
<p>The race argument doesn’t work. There are too many variables, beyond the mere legacy and “AA” arguments. Perhaps a guidance counselor knew one of the admissions officers. Perhaps the student did some volunteer work for the university. Perhaps the student has had international experience which the university wants to cultivate and try to diversify the intellectual experience of the campus. It simply isn’t * just * AA. Nor was it the sole determinant that excluded your Joe Valedictorian with the 4.0 unweighted and 2400 SAT who saved the world three times over. Race is no issue. We simply don’t know, and it would be wrong of us to assume. Complaining your way into college is by no means a meritorious way of gaining access to higher education.</p>
<p>Originally posted by Curmudgeon:</p>
<p>“I support affirmative action in education and in the workplace.”</p>
<p>later on:</p>
<p>“Do we need AA? Obviously not.”</p>
<p>I can see that Curmudgeon likes to switch his/her poinion when it is convenient for him/her.</p>
<p>We , hepstar. Asians and whites. You and me. We. Not we as in our society or all Americans. Or we as in my family. You can’t possibly be that poor a reader to have mistaken what I said and are only trying to antagonize. And doing a good job of it re: Tlaktan’s post. ;).</p>
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Just two of many posts that confirm my meaning was clear to any reader.</p>
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Now how could you possibly have thought I was saying the nation didn’t need AA? My meaning is clear. Your attempts to obfuscate are futile.</p>