How Did the "Super-Applicants" Do?

Bay · January 15, 2007, 11:46pm

hep

I read the article you quoted in #157, and it appears to be an opinion piece written by “Anonymous” ??!!!

What exactly is it supposed to prove? Maybe “numbers don’t lie,” but they don’t necessarily PROVE anything either.

If you want someone to admit that Asians, overall, tend to score highest on GPAs and SAT scores, then okay, I’ll do that. But it just does not change the fact that there are thousands of other applicants (with lower scores) who are qualified to matriculate at any given college.

If you want someone to admit that universities don’t want a mono-racial student population, then I’ll do that too. They want a racially diverse population and have not made that a secret.

What is it you want? For universities to give up their diversity goals?

I guess I’ll go raid your earlier posts to try to find the answer, too.

Just_Browsing · January 16, 2007, 12:03am

Hepstar, you want to know what Affirmative Action “does” to Asians?

I’ll tell you what it does, it does the exact same thing it does to Whites, Blacks, Latinos, and people of any other race. It improves the quality of education by creating a diverse learning environment. It makes the campus friendly to all peoples, it makes the school have a clear emphasis on ensuring that its students are educated in all areas of life, not just the academic ones.

Affirmative Action helps Asians just like it helps everyone.

curmudgeon · January 16, 2007, 12:12am

Hepstar, did you read the whole rant?

The only political groups I have ever had any wish with which to associate myself have been Libertarian ones, and in general my extracurricular involvement on campus has been through Conversio Virium, the student-run BDSM discussion and education group.

Here’s the link to Conversio Virium . Enjoy.

<a href=“http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cv/whatis/[/url]”>http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cv/whatis/</a>

Princedog · January 16, 2007, 12:14am

I don’t really see how legacy isn’t genetic too, but whatever. An argument could be made for athleticism being genetic. Sure a lot of hard work goes in, but I know kids who worked hard at athletics and could never achieve the strength level that was basically genetic for me. Also, some Ivy recruited sports aren’t available to kids without the opportunities, so born in the wrong place, too bad.

Doesn’t it all go back to the power of money? These universities want diverse classes for a reason, it isn’t as if this just dropped from the sky and they randomly decided one day to go on this course of action. Clearly they NEED diversity, about as much as we need and want them.

Even if, theoretically, government action were to eliminate AA, what can you really do? Make them admit a certain quota of Asians? That would be about the same as AA. You can’t control anyone without a practical means of regulation and consequences, and how would this be regulated? HYP could still do what they want, as long as they don’t mention “over the table” any racial preferences, and it’s a private admissions office, so what should the government do, wiretap the conference lines?

The process is inherently unfair, and it’s not going to change. And by “inherently unfair” I mean the process of grasping at straws among qualified candidates itself, not really the idea of HYP admissions. Because like I said earlier, no one is owed a spot anywhere and that in itself is ridiculous. They’ll admit who they want, when they want to, and they don’t owe anyone anything as private institutions. I would be concerned if they were actively barring racial subgroups, but that’s not the case here, and it’s not even outright discrimination. It’s tipping another application in favor of diversity.

curmudgeon · January 16, 2007, 12:16am

Before hepstar gets confuddled, the center paragraph above is a quote from a bit later in the rant he quoted. The dang edit feature is broke again and won’t let me get back in to put it in quotes. LOL.

Bay · January 16, 2007, 1:31am

Cur,

It took me a little while to figure out what you were talking about, but I got it – VERY FUNNY!

Hep,

You really ought to check your sources next time!

dmd77 · January 16, 2007, 9:12am

If I remember correctly, MIT’s percentage of admits that are asian is the same as its percentage of attendees, which is about 28%.

MIT has ALWAYS looked for students who are more than grades and stats. They want students who DID NOT work their a**** off in high school–preferably they coasted through, bored silly–so that they have some a** left to work off at MIT.

Hepstar · January 16, 2007, 2:38pm

“They want students who DID NOT work their a**** off in high school–preferably they coasted through, bored silly–so that they have some a** left to work off at MIT.”

Do you really believe this? Hard work isn’t important? Coast through high school and you’ll get into MIT?

Is this what you tell your kids, that MIT and colleges like it don’t reward hard work? I’m sorry, but I don’t see your logic.

Hepstar · January 16, 2007, 2:47pm

“I know many students who got admitted at MIT, including some who were initially deferred, some who are white and some who are Asian. Ihey’ve got more impressive profiles than Luo. Among them are some USAMO, IMO, IBO, IPHO medalists.”

All of them were white or Asian, which is what I’ve been saying all along. URMs with Luo’s stats DON’T get rejected or deferred. Why can’t you just admit that?

“I read the article you quoted in #157, and it appears to be an opinion piece written by “Anonymous” ??!!! What exactly is it supposed to prove? Maybe “numbers don’t lie,” but they don’t necessarily PROVE anything either.”

Numbers don’t lie, people do. These numbers prove that Asians are hurt by AA, due to the fact that the % of them at the UC schools suddenly increased when AA was elimated in the UC system. I think that proves a lot. It certainly proves much more than anything you can with words.

Hepstar · January 16, 2007, 2:56pm

“Affirmative Action helps Asians just like it helps everyone.”

So putting quotas on Asians and forcing diversity at colleges at their expense is helping them? Again, we have some strange logic here.

Diversity is a nice thing to have. However, if it means having to put quotas on certain races to achieve it, I don’t think it is worth it. It crosses the line of other people’s rights as I explained with my swinging-fists example in an earlier post.

Bay · January 16, 2007, 3:26pm

Hep,

I’m not sure why you are posting on a public forum when you show absolutely no intention of trying to comprehend others’ offered rationale for diversity in admissions.

I think we all understand your position. No need to repeat it.

OdysseyTigger · January 16, 2007, 3:40pm

It is said that the person who knows everything is sad because there is nothing new left to learn…

…sadder still must be the person who just thinks he knows everything.

Hepstar · January 16, 2007, 3:42pm

On this thread, it is quite obvious that my opinion conflicts with the “parental mob” here. We have argued back and fourth about this issue through 12 pages of a thread.

I know that you parents enjoy banding together to strike others opinions down. Many of you have posts counts in the thousands, so I’m sure you’ve been doing this for awhile. You all like to talk up your perspective. When someone opposes you, you say that they don’t know anything or haven’t got their facts straight. Your comments have been personal attacks that have no relevance to this argument.

Despite all of your bitter remarks, I have not yet seen a single verified statistic to support your argument. You say my numbers are a load of BS, yet you have no numbers of your own to prove this. Xiggi, who claims to have posted “statistics” in earlier threads pertaining to AA, hasn’t done so yet, despite the fact that I’ve asked him/her to. Who’s not dong their research now? Who’s not “getting their facts straight?”

Perhaps what annoys me the most off all about you closed-minded individuals is the fact that not one of you has answered my original 2 questions from page 1! Here we are on page 12 and none of you pundits have come up with a answer. You’ve said things like “SATs aren’t everything” and “minorities in ghettos are disadvantaged.” You even tried to change the subject when I brought up my cousin, continuing to question her existence and story for several posts. I guess it was a way for you to avoid answering my original 2 questions. Here they are one final time:

1.) Can any of you name one URM with a 2400 SAT, 5’s on AP exams, who was rejected/deferred from a school?

2.) AA was designed to help DISADVANTAGED minorities. Why then does it apply to the minorities in the article, who go to some of the best high schools in NYC (hardly what you’d call disadvantaged)?

Stop with the condescending, flowery language.

Stop dancing around my questions with comments about minorities and the social injustice they’ve had to face.

Stop accusing me of “not knowing anything” when you’ve thus far provided no statistic that coincides with your viewpoint.

Stop with the personal attacks.

Stop bringing up my cousin as a diversion.

Stop questioning my cousin’s scholarship and her existence.

Stop being totally ignorant.

Stop doing all of these things and ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!!!

I am done posting in this thread for now, perhaps for a long time. Your ignorance is sickening; your animosity is rampant. I’ll be willing to bet that the next few posts aren’t going to be you patting me on the back, but I have better things to do than to try and prove my point to a group of people who have tunnel vision. I have issued my challenges. I have asked my questions. They’ve all been unanswered thus far.

I bid you all farewell and I hope you enjoy your little “parental mob” that summons all of you to strike down others beliefs time and time again.

OdysseyTigger · January 16, 2007, 4:08pm

Your cousin is important because you apparently got caught lying about him. I can not be any plainer than that. You made up a story and got called on it. You lose and whatever credibility you may have had with it.

You have demonstrated repeatedly that in fact you do know very little about statistical analysis and various other items you have talked about.

The posters here have been frankly too polite to you given this last post is what you have been all about from the start.

Undoubtedly, you will be back soon to respond, despite your claims to the contrary.

It just wouldn’t fit your profile to really stay away. :)

unregistered · January 16, 2007, 4:16pm

People have conceded, multiple times, that affirmative action can be abused. They have stated, and I agree, that the benefits of affirmative action outweigh any harm in a potential abuse of the system.

Remember, please, that private colleges have the right to admit whomever they please into their institutions. It is a process of selection, not rejection. There are simply too few spots for too many students. If a college sees racial diversity as a priority (and, indeed, it is important to the consumer) then that is their prerogative. If you are interested in solely numbers-based admissions procedures, numerous universities satisfy this desire. I, personally, would want little to do with them.

You used your cousin as an example. It is only right that people question the validity of your claim, and it is not their fault that you have failed to provide the name of this alleged scholarship. I, likewise, question its existence.

I cannot name a URM with a 2400 etc. who was rejected or deferred from any school - indeed, I know very few people’s SAT scores and no URM’s SAT scores. I assume that the boy who in the first example did list “Hispanic” for his ethnicity, but it’s generally seen as crass to ask people for their SAT scores. Nobody claimed to know a 2400 scoring minority who had been deferred or rejected, however - you are the only one who has made claims and then refused to back them up under questioning - and then become angry at people for questioning your false claims!

I think you’ve shown more animosity in this thread than most of the other posters combined, however, and I hope that you chill out, for your and your blood pressure’s sake.

dmd77 · January 16, 2007, 5:17pm

Hepstar, you quoted me and added your own comment:

’ “They want students who DID NOT work their a**** off in high school–preferably they coasted through, bored silly–so that they have some a** left to work off at MIT.”

'Do you really believe this? Hard work isn’t important? Coast through high school and you’ll get into MIT?

‘Is this what you tell your kids, that MIT and colleges like it don’t reward hard work? I’m sorry, but I don’t see your logic.’

My (white male) son is a student at MIT. He coasted through high school, bored silly, unchallenged. He was in fact so bored with school that his robotics team won regionals (he had time to start a team and fundraise enough to support it) and he built most of a car from scratch. He also spent three hours a day scuba-diving and teaching scuba-diving. Nonetheless, he had excellent SATs (but not perfect) and a few great APs (and a few really awful ones), mostly As and a few Bs. He also was accepted at MIT at the end of his junior year and went there at age 16. In fact, I told him over and over again that MIT would provide him with the challenge he sought… and I was mostly right, although he found more challenges and more pleasure in his part-time job than he did in his classes. He will graduate in June, after 3 1/2 years there, at age 20.

Hard work alone won’t get you into MIT, because you have to have brains and creativity and a love of challenge too. Whether a student has those things will affect his/her accceptance into MIT a lot more than 2400 SAT scores.

curmudgeon · January 16, 2007, 5:52pm

“Poor heppy. We hardly knew ye.”

latetoschool · January 16, 2007, 6:01pm

dmd77, congratulations on your son’s upcoming graduation from MIT, and at only 20, too. That’s awesome.

(sorry for the hijack)

dmd77 · January 16, 2007, 6:37pm

Latetoschool, thanks for the good wishes.

mathmom · January 16, 2007, 8:39pm

I can’t name anyone with these stats. Period. But there was at least one 2400 deferred by MIT this fall. They may well be accepted come spring. All three MIT applicants from our high school were deferred, including my son who has 800s on all his SAT2s, but “only” a 2260 on the SAT1. And honestly anyone can say they have 2400s on these boards - but there’s no way to know if it’s true.

I do know someone who got a 1600 on the SAT before they added writing. He got rejected from lots of schools since he was a B/C student.

How Did the "Super-Applicants" Do?

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