<p>You make a fair point. This is all so very individual-campus based. </p>
<p>Within elite schools, I wouldn’t think twice about the Greek life at, say, MIT or U of Chicago, where they appear to fall into the category of “hey, join if you want to, if you don’t want to, that’s cool too” and at least judging by a quick pass at MIT sorority websites, there is plenty of diversity and not evidence that “you don’t make the cut based on your race / ethnic background.” I would think twice about Dartmouth because I think they exemplify fratty in the Animal House way (“fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life, son”) and I would likely discourage my kid from either going there or from joining that system. </p>
<p>Greek life may sometimes BE the way that it’s described by people like Soze, but it doesn’t HAVE to be that way. </p>
<p>The schools that my kids are looking at that have Greek life are:
D - Colorado College, Kenyon College, Lawrence University
S - Tufts, Brandeis, American, possibly NU.
These are systems in which the Greek systems are generally pretty chill, as the kids say :-), from our investigation. In many of these schools, Greek life is almost more an afterthought – oh, we’ve got a couple of these here, if you’re so inclined. I could see feeling quite differently, however, if they were looking at a different set of schools. But I guess if a school is such that its Greek life isn’t a benign or positive force on the campus, or if Greek life is the major social outlet and non-Greeks are explicitly excluded or have nothing to do, I think that’s a negative for that campus as a whole.</p>
<p>FYI… I’m a Brandeis alum and they have never allowed fraternities.
(I think there may be a few organizations that operate off-campus and call themselves “Brandeis fraternities” but they are not allowed to have events on campus, etc.)</p>
<p>I would say that if your son is the sort of person with any interest in “greek” life, then Brandeis is not the sort of school for him.</p>
<p>Well, let’s see. When I was in college, my parents would come up to visit me and they would take me and a few girlfriends out to dinner downtown, which was always a treat for college students. If I decide that I’m going to invite A, B, and C from the dorm to come with, because I consider them friends and we enjoy spending time together, and I know you from the dorm but find you annoying or just plain not my type, are you “entitled” to come to dinner with us and sit at our table anyway? </p>
<p>Soze, I think you’re having a hard time understanding some basic social conventions. </p>
<p>If a boy asks me out, and I politely decline him and indicate that I am not interested, is he still “entitled” to show up at my dorm door and expect to be invited in, or included if I decide I’m going out for coffee with my girlfriends? Is he “entitled” to join the Guys-Who-Are-Dating-Pizzagirl Club just because he wants to be a member? (It was always a short list, ha ha.) As Bay said before, this isn’t preschool. We are all obligated to be polite and cordial to one another in the absence of a reason not to, but I am not “obligated” to have people be my friends that I don’t want to. That’s true regardless of Greek or not-Greek.</p>
<p>Soze - yes, thank you, now that you mention it, I do recall that there were some off-campus systems. My son will be fine either way. It’s not a deal-breaker one way or the other. My kids tend to be looking at smaller campuses than I tended to. I think that a Greek life can be a way to “break a university down smaller” (at least that’s what my H and I found at NU) – a way to have a circle of friends and a home within a larger organization – but I think that at smaller campuses, that’s not needed as much.</p>
<p>To clarify, this is not the full list of what they are looking at, but rather the list of those places on their list that have Greek organizations. Both of them have other schools on their lists that don’t have Greek systems, and that’s totally fine. It’s not at all necessary, IMO.</p>
<p>Obviously the greek system is not perfect, not every house is friends with every other house or with all non-greeks…gee I just described how the real world works in a social sense. </p>
<p>There is a selection process for who can join, but there is also a selection process for many of the clubs on campus. Almost all of the athletic clubs have selections - made by other “kids”. Others have selection criteria and are also run by “kids”. </p>
<p>My only hope for those who are so dead set against the greeks is that you have a child, niece, nephew, grandchild, godchild or other student you are close to experience the organization from the inside. Then you will have real first hand experience to weigh against your preconcieved notions and prejudices. (Again I am not a member of any greek organization)</p>
<p>Some of you have come to this thread with an agenda and do not want to listen to how things work or how the greek organizations benefit thousands of young people every year. Stick with your stereotypes and prejudice and you miss out on learning about how good the greek system can be as a whole and how the vast majority of greek individuals are benefiting from the experience. Find me one non-greek social, academic, athletic, etc… club or organization that does not have any issues. I don’t think you can see the forest for the trees.</p>
<p>Sigh. I guess I’ll just have to report back on how stupid and fat and drunk my son has become since joining a frat at D this winter. Since this is Sophomore family weekend, and since he is now living in the house, I should have ample opportunity to observe his degradation.</p>
<p>By all means, do discourage your kid from applying to D, Pizzagirl. You wouldn’t want him to come in contact with scum like my son and Olymom’s.</p>
<p>That’s the reputation I’ve always heard, Consolation, but I’m certainly willing to be schooled otherwise if it’s a case of a few bad apples spoiling the whole bunch. I don’t want to be guilty of tarring them all with the same brush, so if I did, I hereby apologize / withdraw. I guess I’m guilty of doing what I accused others of, so mea culpa.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I think you are having a hard time distinguishing between casual social situations and sanctioned, university-recognized organizations and activities.</p>
<p>Neither your parents dinner outing nor your dating activity are university-sanctioned events or activities, and as such you should be free to conduct them in any way you see fit to do so.</p>
<p>However, once a school sanctions an organization or event it becomes another matter entirely. </p>
<p>I went to Brandeis (which doesn’t allow any of these shenanigans) and their policy is simple, clear and fair to all. Here is the excerpt from their student handbook:</p>
<p>“The Board of Trustees reaffirms the University policy of recognizing only those student organizations which are open to all students on the basis of competency or interests. Exclusive or secret societies are inconsistent with the principals of openness to which the University is committed. Therefore social fraternities and sororities, in particular, are neither recognized nor permitted to hold activities on campus nor use University facilities.”</p>
<p>I think this is a excellent policy and I support it completely.</p>
<p>I can see why a college or university holds that policy. </p>
<p>On further reflection - I really put my foot in my mouth with what I said upthread and wasn’t thinking. Consolation, I hope you accept my apology. I was stereotyping in the very same way that I was telling others not to, and I was wrong.</p>
<p>One of the reasons I chose the college I attended was that it did not have frats. Greek life holds no interest for me. But each of my sons chose to attend schools where Greek life is a large part of the social world, and each joined a frat. Each of their experiences have been/is very positive. </p>
<p>So in some ways I can see both sides. But as I think about it now, my sons’ experiences were positive because each of them got a bid from the frat that they wanted to join (and yes, each wanted one specific frat), and they joined with a bunch of friends. They were lucky. The fact is that rush can be a very harsh experience, even at schools where Greek life is relatively laid-back.</p>
<p>"There is a huge difference between this and a bunch of “kids” determining if another kid is “their sort of person.” "</p>
<p>Isn’t this what most of life is about? Employers, civic groups, individuals all do this. Why set sororities and fraternities apart for being “exclusionary” when just about every other institution is “exclusionary” to some extent?</p>
<p>My son is a Lambda Chi. It has been a wonderful experience for him and they do some great community service. His specific frat is small-ish and they really act like a family. I see them when I bring dinner twice a year (his birthday and just before Christmas break), and my hubby sees them twice a year to do a frat house safety analysis (he’s a company safety officer and this helps with their insurance). </p>
<p>That said, there are other frats on his campus that are always in trouble for breaking campus rules and doing stupid things. His hasn’t had an infraction or been in trouble with Campus Police in at least ten years (I checked). </p>
<p>I think it’s important to have connections, but not if those connections are lawless. My son picked a winner, I think.</p>
<p>Okay. That’s one thought. Most “qualified professionals” aren’t really all that “qualified,” but yes, there are objective criteria. Also, even a Harvard admissions officer will tell you it is the “intangibles” which make the difference. Here, it is also the intangibles. Although the greek life didn’t appeal to me, personally, I had no problem with it at all and felt welcome anywhere I wanted to go any time. Some gifts and talents like intellectual ability or math skills will get you into certain colleges that not everyone has a chance to attend, no matter how hard they work. The same can be said of social intelligence and emotional iq, and whatnot.</p>
<p>These “kids” are all legally adults. They have chosen to pledge to uphold certain shared values and to come together to represent an organization with the goal of friendship and comraderie. They can be exclusive. They also have the right to set admission standards (although it is based on intangible things like “clicking with someone”) and to work to attract the best candidates for their organization. After all, any individual within that group is seen as a reflection on the entire group. Can you imagine if there WAS objective criteria for joining a GLO? You wouldn’t necessarily get people who liked each other. And this is a SOCIAL organization. The largest attraction of a GLO is friendship.</p>
<p>Anyone can say that their sorority does not discriminate against women from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, but not coming from a family or suburb that has a Greek background may make it more difficult, in the summer after high school, to gather all of the letters of recommendation required to provide to the sororities. </p>
<p>Also, if one needs the income from her summer job, it may be difficult for her to move to campus a week early for rush. </p>
<p>I know these policies vary from school to school, but at the University of Texas, you can’t rush unless you can be in Austin early - and the sororities note that letters of recommendation quite important (although they ask that you send no more than five to each house you are rushing). There is also the need to have inside knowledge aspect: you have to know, before the first day of college, about moving in early to rush. The college doesn’t tell you this, and if you think you will find out about sororities once you have moved into your freshman dorm and started your freshman year, you are out of luck. </p>
<p>The lovely young lady I met who did not get any bids at UT last fall was an A student in high school and continues to be an A student in college. She was well-liked in high school and is well-liked at college as well. I am sure she was not rejected for academic reasons.</p>
<p>I am sure all of this varies a lot from school to school and that many of you were/are
members of sororities
or
students at colleges
where none of this applies.</p>
<p>What gives them these “rights?”
Why are not all students afforded the same rights?
Why is not anyone who pledges to “uphold certain shared values” allowed to be members?
What exactly would some of these “shared values” be and do you actually run across potential members who clearly don’t uphold them?
What would be the downside of having open membership to all students who apply?</p>
<p>go to a college panhellenic website, then visit some national organization websites, finally check out some specific chapter websites they will talk about goals, shared values, etc… Please do some research before you jump all over someone.</p>
<p>You are correct when it comes to the intense-Greek schools, where all of this is vitally important (and frankly, they take it all way too seriously IMO and “set the bar” in such a way that it IS difficult for the farm girl, the foreign student, etc. who knows nothing about this to join). </p>
<p>When it comes to the laid-back Greek schools, none of this matters. Recs aren’t any big deal and it wouldn’t matter in the least if you knew nothing about Greek life until you stepped on campus.</p>