<p>^^ I agree with collegealum. Great test scores and high GPAs are not the be all and end all of admissions even at Caltech; or should I say, especially at Caltech? They are fairly minimal standards, after all.</p>
<p>Is there a more precise breakdown of SAT scores than by 50 point increments?</p>
<p>Re: NSM’s post #13.</p>
<h2>In 2006, 132,809 students took the SAT Math2c, which is the one I expect applicants to Caltech to take. The mean on that test was 644. The College Board breaks down its report by tranches of 50. The number of students who scored 750-800 on the test was 28,997. If we assume that 10% of these received a score of 800, it would make for 2,899 students. The entire freshman class of Caltech numbered 232. It would be very easy for Caltech and other top schools to admit that many perfect scorers.</h2>
<p>I’ll add that when I took it (10 yrs. ago) that I think you could get 6 wrong on the MathIIC and still get an 800.</p>
<p>Just as an aside, I would be willing to bet that there are more students with perfect unweighted GPA’s turned away than studnets with 2400’s.</p>
<p>Possibly. And GPAs are easily manipulable. That’s why SATs and AP tests exist.</p>
<p>Re NSM’s post #10</p>
<p>Even those schools we imagine might be most numbers driven other factors can prevail. A close friend’s son did not have numbers in the stratasphere in GPA or overall SAT score. He has NO interest in a well-rounded education.
However, he is an ENORMOUSLY creative thinker in computer engineering and was admittedx to MIT.</p>
<p>I found no real logic in DS’s acceptances and rejections in terms of selectivity of schools. Sometimes yield management plays a role. However, amazingly enough, he was accepted at all the schools that were the best match for him.</p>
<p>My advice to candidates would be to know yourself, be yourself, perform at the level most fitting for you, creatively communicate who you are, find as many schools that you like across a fairly broad range of selectivity, apply to as many as you can and hope for the best.</p>
<p>Mythmom, amen.</p>
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<p>That’s very, very unlikely. </p>
<p>At the top LACs, students with very high SAT I+II get in at rates near 100 percent on numbers alone, probably even without stellar grades (though bad grades may keep them out). It is questionable whether any LAC sees 200 perfect SAT applicants per year to begin with, as most people with those scores are applying to top 10 research schools. LAC are a smaller and self-selected applicant pool. Monster statistics will, apparently, set you apart at an LAC.</p>
<p>The LAC admissions officer may have been talking about perfect “superscored” SAT, a far looser standard, or applicants with perfect scores on one component of the exam.</p>
<p>To try to understand, look at a “flip side” example: A young man at my D’s school was accepted to Harvard & Stanford last year ('06). He did NOT have particularly high SAT/ACT scores, nor did he have the highest GPA. In fact, he did not take the most rigorous schedule of classes by any means (although the school doesn’t have any truly “easy” path). What he did have, though, was a million-plus dollar business that he established & ran by himself while a high school student … including employees in CA (he lives in MI). His stats would never get him into Harvard. His LIFE did, though :).</p>
<p>By the way, he decided to go to UMich.</p>
<p>"If the top scorer also has top grades and dream school is a place like CalTech, Cooper Union or their instate public university, those select students primarily based on grades and scores, so the top scorer will probably get into their dream school. "</p>
<p>S was not a top scorer, his SAT scores were 2190. He did have 800’s on the SAT II in Math & Physics. His GPA was 3.83 weighted. He was accepted ED to both Caltech & MIT. A friend of his with a 4.0 unweighted (and I don’t know what it was weighted) & an SAT of 2350 & 800’s on all his SAT II’s was rejected by both Caltech & MIT. Clearly Caltech & MIT didn’t just look at the “numbers” for these two students. S attended a rigorous private high school that had never had a student accepted by either MIT or Caltech in the past, his friend went to an Oakland public HS. Both took classes at UCB during their senior year in HS(both had A’s in their classes at UCB). His friend in fact was only accepted UCB(though he applied to other top schools in addition to Caltech & MIT). Both planned on majoring in math. S however had demonstrated his passion for math by doing ARML, AMC, AIME & math summer programs (PROMYS & HCSSiM) along with a Math Circle. His friend did some math competitions with his High School but not at the same level as ARML or AIME and was not interested in Math Circle & did not participate in any summer programs. So at least in this instance, Caltech didn’t just look at “scores” (unless the tip was my son had an AIME score and his friend didn’t - but my son’s AIME score was only 7 or 8). Just food for thought for those that may think “perfect scores” will get them into Caltech - it doesn’t always work that way.</p>
<p>oaklandmom:</p>
<p>Thanks for providing confirmation for my argument in post #2!</p>
<p>“unless the tip was my son had an AIME score and his friend didn’t - but my son’s AIME score was only 7 or 8”.</p>
<p>That was the USAMO qualifier score. And probably less than 100 students in 11th grade have this score.</p>
<p>Hi all, it’s been quite some time since I’ve checked in and hope all of you and your kids are doing well.</p>
<p>Re: kids with top scores not getting in. I’ve related this story in the past, but think it bears repeating. Two years ago, the valedictorian of my daughter’s small private high school with a good track record of getting kids into schools was one of these kids. He was an Asian boy who had both a 1600 (before the 2400 SAT) and a 36 ACT and 4.0 + UW GPA, taking a total of 11 AP’s before graduating, top academic awards in all science and math-related ECs. But he did NOTHING else. He played 3rd violin in the school orchestra. That’s it. He applied to all 8 Ivies, UMich (our in-state public), and MIT. He got in only to UMich (Honor’s College with a token merit grant) and UPenn. He, his parents (dad on the faculty at UMich), and other students were stunned. I don’t think the school’s college counselors were stunned at all. They knew it would happen and had strongly encouraged the student and his parents to develop a more well-rounded list. He is now at UPenn and quite happy.</p>
<p>Please heed the lessons of this young man.</p>
<p>quiltguru:</p>
<p>What were the top academic awards that this young man won? My S had very very few ECs, (not even violin!) and got into both schools he applied to. </p>
<p>But getting into UMich honors and UPenn is not shabby!</p>
<p>“Please heed the lessons of this young man”</p>
<p>man, if only they had known to send this kid to Africa for the summer to do volunteer work…then he could have gotten in everywhere.</p>
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<p>I agree with marite–I’m not sure what the lesson is here, or how doing anything differently would have necessarily guaranteed a better outcome.</p>
<p>It sounds like he had a fabulous safety in Michigan and that in the end he had two great choices and wound up attending another school at which he is “quite happy.”</p>
<p>If he’d gotten into all 10 schools or even most of them, his April would have been crazy with visits and decisions. The outcome he faced–a choice between two excellent universities–seems like a very good one to me.</p>
<p>He’s really fortunate to live in a state with an outstanding public university with a great honors program. Students in such a situation have the luxury of not needing a whole lot of safeties, especially since Michigan has rolling admissions and they can have an admission in their “back pocket” early in the season.</p>
<p>“He was an Asian boy who had both a 1600 (before the 2400 SAT) and a 36 ACT and 4.0 + UW GPA, taking a total of 11 AP’s before graduating, top academic awards in all science and math-related ECs”</p>
<p>In a public school where my kid attends, graduating with 11 APs is not very special. 1600 SAT is the plus. The real question is the top academic awards in math and sciences. If they are local and school awards then they don’t weigh much (they may work against the kid because they did not show the intelligence and effort corresponding to his SAT score). But if they are at the olympiad level then it’s probably unfair to the kid.</p>
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<p>Well, following that logic, should we not see a great difference between the SAT statistics of top LAC’s and the top research universities. </p>
<p>Should we assume that Caltech SAT numbers are hugely superior to the similar Harvey Mudd in Claremont? </p>
<p>Should we take two from HYPS and compare their percentage of SAT scorers between 700/700 with Pomona’s and Swarthmore’s similar number?</p>
<p>For instance, Yale 25%/75% SAT numbers are 700-790 for both verbal and math. Its percentages of 700-800 scorers are 78% for both math and verbal. Similar numbers for Stanford are V660-760 and M 680-780. The percentages of 700-800 scorers are 59% for verbal and 67% for math. </p>
<p>Pomona’s numbers would be Verbal 690-760 and Math 680-760. High scorers are Verb 71.3% and Math 68.5%. Swarthmore’s numbers would be Verbal 680-770 and Math 670-760. High scorers are Verb 69.8% and Math 62.3%.</p>
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School Rank USN V75% M75% V % M %
Yale 3 790 790 78 78
Stanford 4 760 780 59 67
Swarthmore 3 770 760 70 62
Pomona 7 760 760 71 69
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<p>That doesn’t follow. The LACs have different applicant profile with fewer monster scores, different and lower yield pattern on the high-scoring applicants (e.g. Ivy applicants using LAC as quasi-safeties or second-choice schools), and “stats pressure” due to the larger effect of preferred admission categories (football team, legacy, URM brain drain) on a small student body. Also, this is not just a matter of pure logical speculation. The stat-based admission at the top of the range is attested by Amherst admissions office as reported in Businessweek and linked many times in CC, and in the results of the Avery et al studies (Revealed Preferences, Early Admissions Game).</p>
<p>He was an Asian boy who had both a 1600 (before the 2400 SAT) and a 36 ACT and 4.0 + UW GPA, taking a total of 11 AP’s before graduating, top academic awards in all science and math-related ECs. But he did NOTHING else. He played 3rd violin in the school orchestra.</p>
<p>Lol I had worse stats (2330, 35, 20th in class), even less ECs/awards and I got into Cornell. Must’ve been the essays. And yes, I’m Asian.</p>
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<p>They were in effect looking at standardized credentials: results (pretty good ones) on the national math competition, which are as good as or better than test scores, and participation in a well-known selective national math program during the summer. All in all these additional “stats” favored your son over the other applicant, when added to the SATs and grades in which he was slightly lower.</p>