How do top scorers on tests fail to gain admission to top schools?

Parents Forum
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<p>I’m not even getting into the Ivy arguments, because I think there are terrific kids at all of the top schools.</p>

<p>I do, however, think it is a bit much to expect colleges to be able to determine which dreamers and thinkers are going to be great contributors to a college environment. Some will…some won’t. It is easier, and somewhat more definitive (though nothing is definitive) to look at a candidate in the present, not to extrapolate into the future. </p>

<p>So, it doesn’t surprise me in the slightest that kids who have accomplished more in high school (even those who were pushed and prodded) are more successful at college admissions than those who were still dreaming. Kids who have realized more of their potential do better at this stage…it doesn’t mean that they always will, or that others won’t catch up or even surpass them. But colleges are not mind readers, crystal balls or oracles. They just work with the information they have.</p>

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<p>Again, I agree!</p>

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<p>Sorry, but I want to wade in. I may be in the minority, and that wouldn’t be anything new, but I have always felt that we (the board) give waaay to much credence to the idea that big thoughts or dreams or big accomplishments are required for elite admissions. We (my family) really didn’t think so and my D’s applications ( and really even the decision to apply) were based on that thought. </p>

<p>D focused part of her application on being a “do-er”. I adopted the phrase “See a problem. Fix a problem.” to describe her main essay. (The one commented on by the adcoms.;)) . How that relates to the larger world and her future in it was the basis for many scholarship interview questions, too. Nothing grandiose needed. </p>

<p>Recognition of a need, recognition of a way that she could help meet that need, that she could accomplish with her limited $ and time, action taken meeting that recognized need, and in her case some action taken to make that effort replicable in other communities. For my D, that “project” continues to influence her education and her life choices, just as an adcom might have been able to predict from her essay and her scholarship interviews. It wasn’t “made up” or “coached”. It was her’s. </p>

<p>Does this in and of itself make someone a shoo-in candidate at a super-selective? Nah. I’m sure dreaming and thinking and awards and prizes for excellence and GPA and rank and tests are all good arrows to have in your quiver. But don’t assume they (the super-elite) are looking for a 17 or 18 year old to have exceptionally large scale accomplishments or awards. Sometimes (Well. At least once anyway.) they are looking for a kid who - within the context of who she was and where she came from - "Saw a problem. Fixed a problem. "</p>

<p>They aren’t looking for Marvel comics superheroes. At least they aren’t always looking for them. :wink: My regular kid with great scores and grades from nowhere did just fine. Your’s can , too.</p>

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<p>"but I have always felt that we (the board) give waaay to much credence to the idea that big thoughts or dreams or big accomplishments are required for elite admissions. We (my family) really didn’t think so and my D’s applications ( and really even the decision to apply) were based on that thought. "</p>

<p>I agree.</p>

<p>I believe that Ivies and similar schools look for evidence that applicants have put some of their dreams into action. That doesn’t mean, however, that the applicants need to have organized a citywide or international project.</p>

<p>It does mean, however, that successful applicants will have created or help organized something that had a positive impact on some thing or someone beside themselves. (And the pay big money to do “community service” abroad activities aren’t what I’m talking about!).</p>

<p>An example: One successful Harvard applicant was the first student member on the local board of a nonprofit. If she’d done nothing in that position, it would not have been impressive, just resume dressing. Without being asked to, however, she had redesigned the organization’s web page. </p>

<p>This wasn’t even mentioned on her application because she didn’t think it was particularly important or impressive. She only brought it up in the interview after I asked her what she was doing to make a difference in the board position that she had mentioned.</p>

<p>I included that information in my interview report, however, because it demonstrated her ability to use her strengths and talents to make a difference. She didn’t just notice the web page problems and criticize them: She took the time and effort to improve it. She didn’t just dream: She took action.</p>

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<p>I guess I disagree that all ideas/dreams/thoughts need to be brought to “fruition.” Sometimes it’s okay if they just are.</p>

<p>And as I said above, I’m glad that some pretty good schools agree. I’m glad that S’s school didn’t think it needed to see what dreams he would accomplish–but that’s what drew him to it in the first place–the Core Curriculum is a paradigm for treasuring the idea of thinking for its own sake. Isn’t that an integral part of education?</p>

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<p>I tend to agree with Northstarmom at least as regards to Harvard. Virtually everyone my kid has met there had significant high school accomplishments and were ready to hit the ground running. I haven’t gotten a strong sense that a place like Harvard is the best place for a student to go who is still early in their development and perhaps unsure of themselves. It seems to be a place that is better for students who already have a strong sense of who they are, what they want to do and aggressively seek out opportunities to work with others (including professors) to achieve their goals. Of course this is just my perception. Others may have a completely different perspective.</p>

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<p>Sure, a part of education is thinking for its own sake. Places like Ivies, however, aren’t just Ivy towers where students sit around thinking and studying all of the time. An integral part of an Ivy education is doing things outside of class – deep involvement in nonacademic activities on campus and in the community. What makes Harvard so special is, for example, that students have such latitude to run with their dreams.</p>

<p>Such activities and such a perspective about what it means to attend college are probably, however, more an integral part of a HPY education than, for instance, at Brown, where people are more laid back.</p>

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<p>Well, I wouldn’t presume to know about HYP–I’m sure what you said about them is true. Perhaps my S’s school is different.</p>

<p>But, I must disagree with your “Ivy Tower” cut. Running around starting newspapers, acapella groups, or a hundred other campus-based, fascinating activities is no more or less useful to the outside world than is learning about stuff.</p>

<p>Learning and thinking make you the person who you will be the rest of your life, the person who will go out and interact with the outside world, just as much as will joining/leading a hundred campus groups. Lots of the most productive humans I know do/did not spend time at outside school activities, or formal organizations in general.</p>

<p>I am not saying these clubs/groups/activities aren’t wonderful and fun and enriching to the campus community, just that, except for the social service type ones, they are no less “Ivory Tower” than readin’ and thinkin’.</p>

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<p>I disagree with that , too, garland. I think the “all” is completely wrong, as would be anything even suggesting a plural (“Many/some/a few need to be brought to fruition.” Each of those words would be wrong, too. ) . But I do think some (Not all. This not a requirement for admission at any selective school I’m aware of, just a different path.) kids can impress with the recognition of a community need and the actions they take to meet that need. NSM’s “website” interviewee is a good example. My D also did not think anything was special or earth-shaking about her “idea”. To some adcoms at some colleges it seems to speak volumes about the kid. At others it probably means nothing and I think that’s just fine. I think that’s the way it should be.</p>

<p>OT: Now the big named character/service/all-round goodness scholarship comps? They want do-ers. It is a requirement as far as I can tell, or dang close to it. And no amount of thinking and planning and native brilliance and scores and tests will make up for the lack of doing “something”. IMO.</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon - remember that book we were going to write “one day” about personality type and colleges. This definitely needs to be a chapter. On this thread, we are seeing the difference between those that need “accomplishment” and those that believe the “idea” is sufficient.</p>

<p>I heard a great lecture by a science professor - he talked of the need for “all types” and used astronomy as his example. There were the scientists - now they would probably be called engineers - who through trial and error “built” telescopes. There were the scientists who methodically and painstakingly charted the positions of the stars - for years! Then there were those who looked into the skies, pondered the existence of the stars - studied the charts of the second group who utilized the first group and said “Aha” and postulated new theories/relationships. </p>

<p>We need all types!</p>

<p>But, do certain schools cater to certain types? Do certain schools have a preponderance of one type? Do the professors teach in one or more styles?</p>

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<p>I have to say that I’m not impressed by dreams. I am impressed by actions. As one of my favorite former students used to say, “Some people have dreams. I have plans.” He’s now head of his own nonprofit.</p>

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<p>rfmom. As usual I have a foot in both camps, and I think my D does, too. I want a doer who dreams big dreams and thinks big thoughts but isn’t waiting for everything to be perfect (after I get to college, after I make some money, after I get out of med school , after the kids have died ;)) to start their effort to make the world a better place.</p>

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<p>I’m impressed with useful action inspired by dreams. Not all action is worthwhile. There are a lot of goofy campus organizations, imo, that have little benefit to society at large. </p>

<p>If you want to hear some great ideas about creativity, inspired by Feynman, check this website.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.lifeoptimizer.org/2007/06/14/9-lessons-richard-feynman-taught-us-about-creativity/[/url]”>http://www.lifeoptimizer.org/2007/06/14/9-lessons-richard-feynman-taught-us-about-creativity/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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I can live with that phrasing, but I think my emphasis would be on the recognition of the opportunity to serve , the idea to serve (and the idea’s creativity), and the effort taken in implementing the plan (and the creativity shown in the implementation) rather than the resulting good . Like I said, I’m in both camps at once. Sounds like you are, too.</p>

<p>As an example (and an admission of sorts) D’s project while a “success” is still not as impacting as it could be, but she appears to be in it for the long haul.</p>

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<p>NSM–well, I actually didn’t introduce the word “dreams:” I was addressing your labels.</p>

<p>I’m talking about thinking, not “dreaming.” And again, I think you can end up doing great things in the world without having cured cancer before you left HS. I think college is a grand time to figure out how to make a difference in the world.</p>

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<p>And I do admit, I find it incredibly offensive that you categorically define who does or does not “belong at an Ivy.”</p>

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<p>Cur - I think most people are a “blend” but have definite preferences or leanings. I would guess that your daughter’s preference - just based on her essay “topic” - would be toward “action”. My son, on the other hand, wrote an essay for admission to a summer program where he discussed his love for learning - about anything and everything and was very honest about his lack of need for “implementation”. </p>

<p>Just based on comments posted here - I would tend to characterize “Northstarmom” as one with a preference for “action”. She was very clear about her preference in her comment: "I have to say that I’m not impressed by dreams. I am impressed by actions. " I think you, Cur, “probably” have at least a slight preference for action - with your emphasis on “implementing the plan”. </p>

<p>Garland and I have more of a “pondering” preference. </p>

<p>Speaking just for myself - I get rather bored at the “implementation” stage - I would rather direct my attention to formulating strategy or learning a new subject. </p>

<p>Based on the limited discussion of such topics on CC - I would probably characterize MIT as an environment for “achievers” while Chicago might be more attractive to “thinker/dreamers”. But, of course, these are gross generalizations - I’m sure there is a mix of students at all schools.</p>

<p>Anyone, with more comprehensive insight care to weigh in on the classification of colleges on this limited perspective? </p>

<p>I would love to know more! This isn’t about what “should be” - but what “is”. Schools have definite “personalities and/or profiles”. At least for me, CC is all about helping parents understand these issues and make better choices. </p>

<p>And, I’m laughing at myself a bit here - because I know that many of the more “action oriented” parents see the role of CC very differently!</p>

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<p>Oh my goodness. Why does anyone need to be dissed? That is my only question. That the top Ivies prefer those kids who are a known commodity and have already achieved big things? Fine. Okay by me. But why do we need to diminish the other kids? That’s my only question.</p>

<p>And for the record, I am impressed by dreams, especially those dreams that inspire others to action. And for me, Juliet’s explaining that she would cut Romeo’s face into little pieces and put it among the stars is an important as a telescope. If an Ivy doesn’t agree, fine by me.</p>

<p>Einstein devised the idea of relativity from a thought experiement he did as a child: he imagined himself riding a light ray and imagined the consequences of that. He was not accepted into the most prestigious institution of his day. His wife, Mileva, did much of the early math to accompany his ideas. I prefer his thoughts and “dreams” to the atomic bomb, but that’s just me. I would be happy if those ideas had never been enacted.</p>

<p>I know people my age who tell me attending Harvard has caused them great unhappiness because they feel that as only high school teachers they are failures. Many kids rejected from Ivies now would have been accepted 25 years ago. The New Yorker has asserted that “holisitic” admissions, stressing palpable achievements over academic achievements, was originally instituted to stem the rising tide of Jewish students – it just wasn’t Harvard anymore.</p>

<p>I know one young lady, an awesome young woman in my estimation, who was told she was accepted because she earned 11 5’s on her 11 AP’s. She, however, was heartbroken that she was rejected from Columbia. So go figure.</p>

<p>The purpose of my posts is not to question whether or not the “elite” elites favors go getters or not, happy to concede the point, or whether they should, also happy to concede the point, but to comment on the tone of disdain for other kids that creeps in here.</p>

<p>That being said, the two kids I know who are going to Princetopn are both very “groomed”. One is a lovely girl who is a double legacy whose only outstanding “achievement” is a exchange year in Venezuela and a very bright boy whose achievements, while impressive, were completely fostered by his family culture. I don’t begrudge either kids; they’re great, and Princeton is lucky to have them, but circumstances have also conspired in their favor.</p>

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<p>"And I do admit, I find it incredibly offensive that you categorically define who does or does not “belong at an Ivy.”</p>

<p>What’s offensive about that? As an alum interviewer, I am expected to make that kind of assessment. There’s nothing wrong with being better suited to a different type of school as was, incidentially, true for both of my kids. S #2 is off to a 2nd tier college that suits him well. I’m happy and proud of him.</p>

<p>I don’t see it as diminishing kids when one says things like people whose have dreamed big, but haven’t taken actions to put some of their ideas into place, aren’t good candidates for HPY. There are many schools that are excellent nurturing and mentoring environments for students who have ideas, but no clue about how to implement them. What’s wrong with such students going to colleges that would provide them with mentors so they can optimally develop? It’s no diss to say that such students, no matter how intelligent, are not only not good matches for Ivies, but also can probably develop their full talents and potential better elsewhere.</p>

<p>"I know people my age who tell me attending Harvard has caused them great unhappiness because they feel that as only high school teachers they are failures. "</p>

<p>The problem lies in their own self esteem, not where they went to college. I used to feel the same way – and the problem really was me. I’d look around and think that somehow I should have been a doctor or lawyer because so many of my classmates from Harvard were. It finally dawned on me that I’ve been following my own bliss, and that’s what’s important. I had no interest in being a doctor or lawyer, and am very glad that I’m not. </p>

<p>Interestingly, after I came to that awareness, I also started noticing that many of my classmates have expressed admiration for how I’ve continued to follow my heart. Truth is, that very few of my classmates are into making comparisons about who has the better career. People have taken very different paths in my class, and as we approach our 60s, what classmates express admiration about has to do far with what people’s characters and hearts are like than how much money they’ve made or how high status their jobs are. One of the most admired people in my class is a woman who started a small nonprofit in a developing country and lives near poverty level there. What she is doing is not widely known outside of our class, and she hasn’t gotten awards or anything, but she’s making a big difference in a small community.</p>

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<p>You interview for the entire Ivy League? That’s impressive!</p>

<p>(Omigosh, this thread is making me snarky…time to log off!)</p>