<p>I edited to move to start a new post, then decided it was best as a subthread here since it really is more of a rant. Don’t get me wrong, MIT and Harvard provide excellent educational opportunities and if one’s true goal is to be a world-class scientific researcher, then that’s where you should be. Although in my opinion, it makes much more sense to go to graduate school there instead. Undergrad honestly doesn’t have much of a place at these schools.</p>
<p>Students interested in anything besides a research career have no reason to be at these schools (as an undergrad).</p>
<p>"Don’t get me wrong, MIT and Harvard provide excellent educational opportunities and if one’s true goal is to be a world-class scientific researcher, then that’s where you should be. "</p>
<p>I don’t know about MIT, but when it comes to Harvard, there are many other universities - particularly LACs – who hae a higher percentage of undergrads who eventually become scientific researchers. At Harvard, a high percentage of undergrads eventually become doctors, lawyers and business executives.</p>
<p>Do you mean scientific researchers, or PhD’s? The first one implies an additional bias toward the elite PhD programs, and therefore bachelor’s degrees from the top research universities.</p>
<p>i was referring to Ph.Ds. I haven’t seen this info specifically about scientific researchers, but would be interested in seeing it if anyone has that info.</p>
<p>Scientific research is dominated by those whose undergraduate and graduate admissions process was very un-holistic, i.e., those who came to the USA during or after their doctoral studies.</p>
<p>First you have to look at the choice of the word “de-lusional”. We can find the meaning in the origin its component parts. </p>
<p>“de-”, when used in this fashion , like de-forestation, means “to remove” or “to take away”. </p>
<p>“Lus” is from the same root as the Spanish “la luz” meaning “light” (“light” is a common metaphor for “knowledge”) and at the same time and simultaneously the Latin “Lux” as in "Luxor’ meaning “luxurious” or “meant only for the prestigious”. “Prestigious knowledge” meaning Ivy League, well …at least the Upper Ivies - HYP. </p>
<p>-ion is the same use here as in “religion” or “nation” denoting “a group sharing an idea or purpose”. </p>
<p>-al means “of” or “pertaining to”, as in “regional” - of or pertaining to a particular region. </p>
<p>Clearly the use of the word “delusional” in this instance -
means "of or pertaining to a group that conspires to keep my kid or myself out of HYP ".</p>
<p>From other posts it is clear the author believes this “discrimination” to be racially motivated. </p>
<p>We shall overcome. We shall overcome. We shall overcome , someday.</p>
<p>First of all, what does college admission have to do with “rewarding” high school cheating? If some punishment were imposed by the high school, such as failing a course, marking the high school transcript, suspension, expulsion, or denial of a diploma, should that not be sufficient? Or do you prefer a situation where school personnel, who are renowned for their fairness, wisdom, and complete lack of pettiness, are critically involved in setting the student’s options for years to come? </p>
<p>Second, a non-holistic system (e.g. one that ignores ECs), could certainly look at high school transcripts, and if failing grades or other fruits of cheating are found there, take account of that in admission as the university sees fit. It doesn’t follow at all that the high-testing cheater would have been admitted to all or any schools of his choice under nonholistic admissions.</p>
<p>I was simply noting that the young man’s college results were probably the fruits of his labor in that he could not find teachers to write him good recommendations, so the ones he sent were so-so. And disciplinary measures ARE reported on your transcript and when they happen during senior year the colleges the student have applied to are notified.</p>
<p>The problem was the this was the first time the student was caught red-handed. Often cheaters who have been caught are not first time offenders. So his transcript would not show the academic dishonesty he was guilty of. So he quite possibly, were it not for the incident senior year, could have been REWARDED for cheating.</p>
<p>I don’t think that school officials, at my small, private school are retaliatory. If anything they are more understanding. But you reap what you sow, and you cannot expect great schools to take you if you are lacking in personal qualities. The student set his own options.</p>
<p>“The problem was the this was the first time the student was caught red-handed. Often cheaters who have been caught are not first time offenders. So his transcript would not show the academic dishonesty he was guilty of. So he quite possibly, were it not for the incident senior year, could have been REWARDED for cheating.”</p>
<p>The points in your post are valid, siserune. However, I did understand the points that ses went on to clarify in his more recent reply. I pasted in some of his words to re-emphasize an important aspect of what he said. There is a huge amount of cheating that is a regular way of life among some students who are most determined to sustain a 4.0 & to get into HYP. Unfortunately, this is not addressed head-on by enough high schools, and not noticed by enough colleges. In the case of colleges, it is often true that discovered cheating or plagiarism results in an F for the the test, the paper and/or the course. Too many highschools (a) are not vigilant, (b) look the other way, (c) employ slaps on the wrist when it’s discovered. I know this is O/T, but for highschool students, the surest way to reduce cheating is an immediate F for every occasion. Even a suspension for a series of incidents is not as effective as a compromise of the highshool transcript, which i.m.o. should never be adjusted if that F lowered a final grade. </p>
<p>I read long ago that cheating is directly related to the amount of pressure students feel from parents to perform “perfectly” (“or else”!). (Not how morally or religiously the student has been raised, or how otherwise honest his personal environment is.)</p>
<p>Setting aside the role of hooks (athletics, legacies, diversity) would a purely numbers-driven approach be desirable at schools that aim to be highly selective?</p>
<p>Let me preface this by taking into account the French bac with which I am familiar. French high school students are divided into tracks depending on their interests (not ability per se). Each student within the same track will be exposed to the same curriculum at the same time in his or her trajectory through school (and even, perhaps, on the same day of the same week). Both the bac results will be easily decoded and the GPAs will be based on the same accomplishments at the same grade levels.</p>
<p>American students, however, take different courses, in different order, at different time. Setting aside the issue of weighting of honors and APs, I would expect that adcoms would be more impressed by students taking post-AP courses while in high school; taking AP courses earlier in their school career (eg. taking AP Calc in 9th or 10th grade rather than in 12th grade); indeed I would expect that a purely numbers-driven approach would also need to go beyond Board scores and GPA and include other academic indices such as APs, But, since the US does not have the same uniform curriculum as France, some schools have loads of APs and some only a handful or even none (and no IB substitute either). So adcoms have to look both beyond Board scores and GPAs AND also to academic context to interpret a student’s achievements and potential in a way that French universities do not have to do.</p>
<p>It seems to me that this is what top colleges already do. Except for a very few exceptions, the hooks and tips are added on after a careful scrutiny of the academic record. </p>
<p>I expect that Mammall’s child, with his great score achieved early, will be more impressive to adcoms than someone with the same score achieved in the senior year. Of course, the score cannot be the only thing to judge him by: presumably, this high score will have been followed by challenging courses.</p>
<p>A holistic approach will be of benefit to applicants such as Mammall’s son whereas a purely numbers-driven one would lump him together with applicants who achieved the same score after many tries or took easier courses to maintain their high GPAs. In other words, a holistic approach is not about substituting non-academic criteria for academic ones. It works also for an evaluation of applicants’ academic performance.</p>
<p>Gee, curmudgeon: And here I thought delusional was a psychiatric term (silly me), and that “groups” might refer to posters, as if posters (unless the username is italicized) have absolutely any power to DENY admission to CollegeConfidential students, or to the sons & daughters of cc parents.;)</p>
<p>(I’m always amused when parents & students rant on about how POSTERS’ “agreement with admissions committees” supposedly affects the likelihood of their own, their “group’s,” or their relatives’ admission to HYP. Otherwise known as Kill The Messenger who is merely clarifying a message.)</p>
<p>Honestly, I didn’t know we were talking about “groups” in this thread.
But, whatever.:)</p>
<p>“A holistic approach will be of benefit to applicants such as Mammall’s son whereas a purely numbers-driven one would lump him together with applicants who achieved the same score after many tries or took easier courses to maintain their high GPAs. In other words, a holistic approach is not about substituting non-academic criteria for academic ones. It works also for an evaluation of applicants’ academic performance.”</p>
<p>^^ Same point I also made about half a year ago, & glad that you’ve reframed it here, marite, in the light of even a different (more uniform) system of grading. So I’ll say it again: holistic admissions is win/win for everyone, even in only the “strictly academic” considerations of merit. It is an evaluation that is mentally graphed. (I agree, it can only <em>help</em> mammall’s child/children, assuming that the aptitude demonstrated in 8th grade is confirmed by the accomplishment in the following 4 grades.)</p>
<p>Absolutely, true, but I think it misses Mammall’s underlying point: all 2400/36’s (“the premium”) should receive near automatic acceptance to the college of thier choice, so lumping those few hundred together won’t much matter.</p>
<p>Yeah, well. My S did not achieve a 1600–closee enough, at least for adcom but not perfection. No auto-admission for him, despite his 9 college courses and 6 APs. Good thing that two colleges decided that those college math courses counted for more than a mere 800 on the SAT-math which covers only pre-calc. Oh, and he did not have a competitive GPA, either, what with the college courses and the fact that he graduated early. But that’s the risk he was willing to take in order to challenge himself: as long as he could hold his own, he would take the class and not worry about getting As.</p>
<p>And perhaps Mammall’s son with his perfect ACT score early on, will follow in the footsteps of my son and encounter exactly the same issues. And he will be judged the same way as mine was: holistically. And he will be admitted, despite not having hooks (which my S did not have in one of the two schools he applied to).</p>
<p>“And perhaps Mammall’s son with his perfect ACT score early on, will follow in the footsteps of my son and encounter exactly the same issues.”</p>
<p>^^ (Echo chamber here). Enrolling in college classes (also something I mentioned on another thread) is usually an option for students whose school curricula limit the bounds of achievement. That doesn’t require a lot of money or “high-powered high schools” leading the student by the hand. The only role the site high school provides is to sign off on the permission to enroll in the community college. </p>
<p>Marite, the Q factor for your son was exceptionally high, overriding any limitations of an X factor. In our state, it would be difficult to complete 9 college courses before college application, or even by end of senior year, unless one enrolled in at least one summer session, or started the process in middle school. The comm. colleges & the highschools tend to want to limit the pre-college-age student to one course per semester. Your son’s consistent enrollment in challenging courses exceeding the typical cognitive development of his age was obviously a significant tip in his admission. Lopsided indeed. VERY lopsided, & unusually so. It’s the reason that – and I know you mean well & you’re probably feeling genuinely modest because you’ve lived with his ability for so long – your son is actually not very typical of even an HYP applicant, i.m.o.</p>
<p>If all 2400/36ers were guaranteed admission, colleges would be receiving more students with strong, but not necessarily outstanding, analytical skills. This, in lieu of students with truly exceptional talent in math but not in English, and students who will win Newberries and Pulitzers and Nobels but not necessarily make contributions in science or mathematics. In the long haul, it would seem like the latter group is more valuable to a college environment.</p>
<p>If one went by the metrics proposed by mammall and the advocates of a strict 2400/36 admit policy, people like my son would not be competitive (well, less competitive than the perfect scorers). Indeed, many stellar admits do not have the perfect 2400/36 that seem to mesmerize so many here. But they have something that, in my opinion, is far more indicative of what they can do academically in college: a more challenging set of courses and awards for academic achievements outside of school.</p>
<p>What I want to challenge is the idea that holistic review de-emphasizes academics in favor of non-academic factors. The value of non-academic factors at top schools is far more limited than many critics of holistic review believe it to be. </p>
<p>At our old high school, it is now possible for well prepared students to take AP-Calc BC in the junior year. I expect it will become routine for such students to take Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra in their senior year. It won’t be such a big deal any more. And they will have learned more math than the 800 scorers on the SAT-math. </p>
<p>EDIT: Logbent makes a good point as well about lopsided students. One does not need to score 800 on the math SAT to write brilliant novels or become a world-class historian.</p>
<p>Standardized test scores are limited in what they reveal. Highschool grades reveal a little more especially when you consider course choices. An essay helps clarify somethings but they can be edited, and interviews share even more as long as the child isn’t overly shy or jet lagged.</p>
<p>Education is more than grades or scores, so why would it surprise people that when given the option to create exciting learning opportunities schools look for diversity. " I always tell my professors to be good to the A students because we might want to come back here to teach someday; and I tell them to be good to the C students because we might want them to donate buildings someday." advice from a President of Cornell.</p>
<p>Having a B in a class or a 750 doesn’t make you less of a student then the person with an A and an 800…you might have been learning something that was important to you but not on the test.</p>
So I’ll say it again: holistic admissions is win/win for everyone, even in only the “strictly academic” considerations of merit. It is an evaluation that is mentally graphed. (I agree, it can only <em>help</em> mammall’s child/children, assuming that the aptitude demonstrated in 8th grade is confirmed by the accomplishment in the following 4 grades.)</p>