<p>hudsonvalley,
Jay Mathews (again) has written about a study in Texas (IIRC) demonstrasting that students taking an AP course, even if they did not do well on the exam, were better prepared for college. He uses it as one of his arguments for school systems to reduce gatekeeping for students who want to take an AP course. Will see if I can find the source.</p>
<p>I would suspect that AP courses do indeed prepare students for college more effectively than regular “college prep” courses. On the other hand, I suspect that many enriched/honors and college-credit courses that don’t have the AP label attached to them do the same thing. Some may do a better job than the AP courses. Only the AP courses, however, have widespread acceptance among colleges across the country to the extent that college credit will be granted or introductory courses will be waived if a certain score is achieved on the final exam.</p>
<p>You don’t have to have a genuine interest in the subject. Mathson had no interest in US History, he was going to have to take some sort of US History course in any event. If he did well in AP US History he would never have to take it again. That said, I agree in general that it’s silly to take AP Courses just to rack up the numbers.</p>
<p>That said, my son’s GC did feel that if he wanted to apply to schools “like Vassar” he needed to take enough APs to look like he had a rigorous schedule. Ultimately he’s made his choices based mostly on his interests and the reputations of the teachers teaching the courses.</p>
<p>If the only goal here is to get into a top 20 school, then find out from the GC what it takes to have the “most rigorous curriculum” box checked, and then take that many APs. I imagine that response will vary by high school.</p>
<p>Hopefully there are more goals in life than getting into a top 20 school.</p>
<p>D will graduate with 11 AP’s. (1, 1, 4, then 5 senior year). She took the AP’s for two reasons: one to test out of a lot of Gen Ed requirements, and two … and for her the biggest reason: she’s bored silly in honors courses. Schools in our area have made such a big deal out of … if you’re getting all A’s in standard, take a few honors. If you’re getting all A’s in honors, take a few AP’s. The problem is that so many kids who should be in standard are taking honors that they’ve watered things down so much to accomodate. As an example, she took honors physics in her jr year before taking AP physics this year. She realized pretty quickly that the teacher was only adding on two more homework problems per assignment to differentiate the honors class from the standard class. As she taught both, she taught them identically … again, with maybe one extra example here and there. My d was going nutty with how slow everything was and the way kids were complaining about the huge amount of homework they were having … homework that she was completing during class time as she got things so quickly. Yes, d’s incredibly smart … but it’s more than that. If you are going to offer standard, honors, and AP there needs to be more deliniation between the levels and kids need to have a better understanding of the differences so that kids are not placed into levels they are not ready for and so that teachers don’t have to “dumb down” honors to accomodate those who are not equipped. So, D will graduate with 11 AP’s … which may seem obsessive, but she has a 4.0 u.w., so it’s not like it killed her doing this. (btw, she’s made all 5’s, with a couple of 4’s, on every AP exam, so she’s achieving her goal of having lots of options for reducing gen ed requirements). </p>
<p>zebes</p>
<p>P.S. Another factor in taking this many classes is that here in Florida, thus far, we don’t pay for any of the AP exams, so we don’t have a financial incentive to not take the classes. Oh … she’ll be attending UF. She only applied to 3 schools, none of them ivy’s or top 20’s … just not her.</p>
<p>Zebes – Teachers who really don’t want to teach honors, or APs for that matter, should not be allowed to do so. Unfortunately, this is the case at my younger D’s school. She is taking the first year in “Honors/AP” World History. Her teacher is so vested in her project heavy standard curriculum that she has refused to teach the skills necessary to succeed next year when the actual AP exam will be offered. One DBQ all year! Ever heard of an AP class when your grade is based on the color ink you use on your notes or the quality of construction of a model of a medieval castle? No? Come pay us a visit.</p>
<p>Fortunately, my wife is an AP teacher who works in another school and she will be working with my daughter over the summer to teach her what she should have learned this year. And we’ll be addressing the shortcomings of this year’s class with the school administration once the school year is over and final grades have been recorded (this teacher is notorious for taking it out on kids of parents who make complaints).</p>
<p>Sort of off-topic but I think illustrative of the fact that not all AP courses are created equal.</p>
<p>I hate hearing about schools that have “dumbed down” their honors curriculum. At D’s high school, honors and AP courses are weighted the same way and they’re supposed to be (and I think are) equally challenging. If there’s an AP course available (say AP Physics), then there isn’t an honors course. But since, unlike in Biology or Physics, AP Chemistry is considered a second chemistry course in this HS, there is an Honors Chemistry I that is taken prior to AP Chemistry, and honors math and language courses are available at the levels prior to Calculus and Language 5. Anyway, you need a teacher recommendation to get into the honors course. If you don’t have one, you won’t necessarily be denied entrance to the class (in some classes you will, in others you won’t), but you’ll be discouraged from taking it in all cases. If you choose to take the class anyway, you’re held to the same standard as everyone else - no dumbing down. The honors teachers will give C’s, D’s and F’s to kids who are trying hard and doing all the homework and assignments but who just weren’t meant to be in the honors class and do poorly. I’m often amazed at how many parents fight to get their kids into honors classes, only to have them get poor grades, when they could have had an A in the regular college prep class. And honors/AP courses only get a 0.5 GPA boost, so an A in a regular class is worth more than a B+ in an honors/AP course. But kudos to the school for not dumbing down.</p>
<p>
Blossom; I think the norm is different for each school. I was just pointing that deviating from the norm at your school might hurt your application to top schools.</p>
<p>
DD HS also weight the Honors and APs the same 0.5 over a regular course. So the AP courses are genuinely for those who wants to put the additional effort. But there was a difference between the Honors and AP courses. An AP course demand much more effort than an Honors course and should have been rated at 0.75 over a regular course.</p>
<p>But that is what I pointed out earlier that at DD school you can achieve a very high GPA without APs by taking just honors courses. Which might not the best thing to do as learned by many the hard way. It is better to have a little less GPA with a more rigorous curriculumn.</p>
<p>Our local HS links honors and AP classes. In freshman year if you want the highest English you take Honors and then you MUST also take Honors History. No choice…if you want one you must take the other. Soph year again they are linked…Honors Eng with AP US History…no choice. Jr year AP European History with AP LAnguage/comp…no choice. Senior year they finally split off. Lots of kids complain that they want to just take the English and are forced to take the History or vice a versa. The maths and sciences are not linked. Makes absolutely no sense to me! Most high end scholars end up with 6-8 AP classes although more are offered.</p>
<p>“Norm” is from high to high school, as emphasized here. So in terms of what any individuals should be doing…vary this by personal situations. </p>
<p>My high school pushed a lot of people into AP classes and replaced all honors classes with AP classes(we had all possible AP’s in my district except Latin and AP Euro…) so they got “dumbed down”. So the top students pretty much just took all courses other than like gym and orchestra and band, etc. AP. I got away with an A in AP Bio my junior year without ever opening the textbook because I knew I could count on a curve in my favor and there were other things(like sleep) I ended up putting my time into. When I was sleepy and had to choose between sleep and actually bothering, I usually chose sleep. I didn’t know very much, but my similarly lazy peers knew even less, which was next to nothing.( Actually having to learn how to study in college was…difficult.) Because of this, you needed to take at least 10 AP’s to end up in the top 5% and 13 to be in the top 5. But it wasn’t a ridiculous workload–our college workloads are far more difficult to handle. I imagine 5 AP classes in a year for some high schools would be soul-crushing, whereas at my high school all students who got into top schools did this in junior year and while it wasn’t a walk in the park, it was manageable for the top students(because that’s why they were on top…they simply found it easier and could handle more.)</p>
<p>"S was named a presidential scholar at a state flagship university. Then was offered additional scholarships on top of that. He will pay zero to go to college (and it is a good school).</p>
<p>He will have taken only 2 AP classes by the time he is done with high school, compared to many students at his school and students at the other high schools in the state where the norm is typically 8-10 AP classes if not more. He took the 2 he took because of the teacher or because the subject interested him.</p>
<p>Inside I laugh. While everyone else was in hyper-competitive mode, loading their schedules with APs, leadership, extracurriculars, etc., he was learning about himself, exploring his talents, following his heart and doing his best to satisfy himself. The university chose him as one of 25 out of an incoming class of 4000-5000 students for presidential scholarships.</p>
<p>I admire him for being true to himself; clearly so does the university. " JDA 1990</p>
<p>Wow! Sounds like my daughter. Top 20 LAC, four year merit scholarship, GTO at Ivy, no APs freshman thru Junior year. One in senior year. I think the AP madness is a CC thing. Most of D’s HS friends like her took zero APs and all are headed to outstanding schools. One got into Middlebury. I think all As in CP courses is definitely better than Cs and Bs on APs and Honors. I’m not convinced at all APs make a difference in admissions. I don’t see the evidence. I see the opposite happening.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>According to Matthews’ column, the Texas study found only that students **who attained points on an AP exam<a href=“those%20who%20scored%202%20or%20higher”>/b</a> performed better in college. Taking an AP or dual-enrollment class did not have the same effect. </p>
<p>That’s not surprising: students who could demonstrate some learning on an objective exam performed better than statistically similar students who had nothing going for them except course enrollment and subjective grades.</p>
<p>I took 12 APs , not just for college but to satisfy my own intellectual curiosity. Getting college credit for passing the test was a plus. I loved every AP class i took and learned more in those classes than i have learned anything most of my life. It was great experience. The teachers are much better in AP classes at least in my school. I would recommend taking AP classes that interest you not just to pad your college resume.</p>
<p>Our high school’s counseling center has created binders for many colleges containing the transcripts of our students accepted to that college (with the student’s identity blacked out). In addition to courses taken and grades, the transcripts also contain SAT score, subject test scores, and AP scores. Its pretty useful for getting an idea of what different colleges want to see in a student from your particular high school. </p>
<p>S2 only glanced at a couple of binders. Enough to realize that the kids who got into MIT, Harvard, etc… from our high school all took an aggressive AP load (10 +, which with block scheduling is hard to accomplish). But then you could pretty much tell that from the weighted GPA of our accepted students in Naviance.</p>
<p>Your school may vary. If you are shooting for an elite college or university, find out from your guidance counselor what they want to see to get that “most rigorous schedule” checked off.</p>
<p>Even for schools just off the top (like Vassar) our GC thought my younger son would need a pretty full AP schedule. (He took 1 as a sophomore and is taking 2 as a junior and is signed up to take 4 as a senior.)</p>
<p>My D’s HS had very few AP’s offered and kids were not allowed to take classes at any colleges. In addition, they were allowed to take only 3 AP’s / year. </p>
<p>Conclusion, there is no normal number, it depend on school, kid, future major. One more comment from my college sophomore D - she was much better prepared by her Honors Chemistry than other by taking AP, which was recognised by prof. who offered her paid Supplemental Instructor Position. So college prep level seems to depend more on school than AP vs regular class. AP Chem was not offerred at D’s school.</p>
<p>Didn’t read the thread, but here’s what I got to say.</p>
<p>You don’t have to take AP for every single class to get into a top school.</p>
<p>Some of my friends (and I) ended up doing worse in AP classes (B+/A-) because of other commitments, when they could have easily gotten an A in a regular class. Yes, AP is generally a better academic experience, but if you worry about the grades, consider carefully.</p>
<p>Any kid from NY/LI area would have to load up on AP’s to get “most rigorous” as a check on an app. Kids in the top 10% have no less than 1 as soph, 4 as Juniors, and 4/5 as seniors.
I believe it all depends on what area of the country you live–>, where you are intending to go to school. The further away from home the less of an issue it is, you are an anomoly, they will want you for that reason alone. Staying in the NE to attend college it is a must for them to be anyway competitive.</p>
<p>I remember when D2 was in GTA as a sophomore. Our high school has block scheduling and she was in class first semester of sophomore year. She wasn’t going to take math second semester, but was going to take Honors Pre-Calc and AP Calc junior year, then be done with math. I was suggesting to her to take Honors Pre-Calc second semester of sophomore year so that she would have the Honors Pre-Calc under her belt before the PSAT, and there wouldn’t be such a time lapse between having a math class and the PSAT, which is typically toward the beginning of the junior year. I asked her math teacher about it, and he said basically everything they need to know for the PSAT/SAT/ACT is covered up through GTA, so we let go of it, and she took a year of math her junior year, none senior year, but had four math credits upon graduation.</p>
<p>The two main reasons my kids took APs was that they would have been incredibly bored by the alternative (as someone suggested upthread) (D2 actually dropped out of AP English-Language Composition after one term because she was bored, still took the AP test and scored a 5), and they entered college as second semester sophomores due to the credits they got. Although D2 is taking summer school this summer to do it (she just finished her second year of college, although technically she’s a second semester junior now) she will be completely done with all her non-major classes, which means she is now freed up to take just classes related to her major for her last two years in college. There are lots of electives within her majors (she’s double majoring) that she would not have the opportunity to take, had she not had so many AP credits. I also know of one kid, who, with his plethora of APs, is able to triple major and graduate in less than four years. This kid (as well as my own) were also heavily involved in extra-curriculars… they did have lives outside of academics.</p>
<p>So, there are many reasons for taking as many APs as available, and they don’t all revolve around embellishing college applications for admissions.</p>