<p>“I personally believe, based on anecdotal evidence, that a 3.8 at a top institution, in a major such as finance, may be worth at least 90k over a 3.8 at a lesser school.”</p>
<p>This is probably true, but sets up an undue amount of pressure for the OP, and is very narrow. This is only true for a narrow set of majors/goals (e.g. finance, business, consulting). Oftentimes, folks in these fields tend to not enjoy these jobs, and I just don’t really see a reason for the OP to take on a lot of debt, for the (still slim) chance that he/she could land a job at McK or Goldman, in an industry that has high turnover and low job satisfaction rates for entry level people.</p>
<p>There is the possibility that your international relations at Penn would be with a rich heiress whose father will get you set up for life. That’s more likely to happen at an ivy than those other schools. :-)</p>
<p>It’s kind of the gender-neutral equivalent to the old MRS degree.</p>
<p>“There is the possibility that your international relations at Penn would be with a rich heiress whose father will get you set up for life. That’s more likely to happen at an ivy than those other schools. :-)”</p>
<p>Again, hah, sure, there is a chance this happens, but it’s not very high! Better to make decisions based on likely scenarios, OP!</p>
<p>*Consider it a long-term investment in yourself. Do you believe you’re worth it?
*</p>
<p>OMG.</p>
<p>The decision to take out HUGE debt should not be based on “do you think you’re worth it.” Who the heck isn’t “worth it”? And since when would a young person have the discernment to really know yes or no?</p>
<p>If these young folks who are advocating this kind of debt knew how many high stats college grads are lucky to have $40k-50k per year jobs, they would not be thinking that this kind of debt is ok. </p>
<p>Too many think…hmmm…I’ll earn $60k-70k…I’ll pay $12k per year towards my debt…I’ll happily live on the remaining $50k+. They don’t realize that they likely will not be earning that much AND their living expenses as a single person can be $30k+ (sometimes more if a car loan is being paid or rent is high)…then add in all the taxes they’ll have to pay…they’re not going to be happy paying out those loans for 10 LONG years.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that the best paying jobs are usually found in HIGH rent, HIGH tax areas.</p>
<p>Nothing is cut and dry. Usually you are correct but here are exceptions. You have to do the math. For example, I think going to Wharton would be worth borrowing 90K. 5 years out many Wharton grads are easily making 6 figures and 10 years out, many are making 7 figures. Having this degree will automatically make you very credit worthy and you can borrow money to smooth things out. This would be the kind of unique opportunity that would make it worth it. You just can’t get this at Alabama. </p>
<p>I still can’t believe that UPenn would ask a STUDENT to take out 90K in loans. I think that they determined that the parents contribution is high and expect the parents to take out loans if they need to. Parents have put it on the kid. That’s a completely different decision. In that case it is the parents who are determining whether the student can’t attend UPenn and the student can ask for a release. </p>
<p>That’s probably the right move in this situation if the parents won’t borrow the money.</p>
<p>"“I personally believe, based on anecdotal evidence, that a 3.8 at a top institution, in a major such as finance, may be worth at least 90k over a 3.8 at a lesser school.”"</p>
<p>Even if true, it is a mistake to go choose a school that will only be worth it if you get a 3.8+. You can’t know how well you will do once you’re competing with other Penn students. That GPA puts you somewhere around the top 10% of the class. 90% of the kids won’t make it.</p>
<p>For all those telling Harry “to invest in himself” I’m sure he’s very willing to give you his student ID number for you to write your check to the Penn Bursar’s office. But if your generosity in dollars doesn’t meet your generosity in advice, can I share this?</p>
<p>Penn’s average debt at graduation (for those students who have any debt at all) is about $18K. So the OP’s debt would be 5X the average. That sounds like a lot of debt to me. We’re not talking about a Wharton student, either. We’re talking about an English + IR major in the CAS. The average starting pay for an English major is about $38K. IR is $41K. The average for all UPenn graduates is about $56K.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I can’t believe they would either, or that if they wanted to, they could.
The OP’s family must have a high enough income (probably > $150K) that he didn’t qualify for much (if any) financial aid. Penn’s average need-based self-help award is about $2600. The average need-based loan is all of $201.10 per year.</p>
<p>What may be going on is that the OP’s parents are simply unwilling to cover the Expected Family Contribution. Or maybe they have high expenses that Penn won’t factor into their determination of need. In either case, it seems to me, the student can’t afford to attend this school.</p>
<p>Penn is not worth that kind of debt. OP must have been given the lowest possible FA package available. He might try to appeal his FA decision to Penn. OP may have been accepted at Penn, but he got screwed on FA. If Penn won’t budge, go elsewhere.</p>
<p>OP could apply to Swarthmore or Haverford. If he were to attend one of those with a reasonable FA package, he will see that Penn’s not worth any $80-90K or even of debt.</p>
<p>I would contact the financial aid office and let them know that this amount of debt is not someone your family can take on. If they really want you to attend, perhaps you can negotiate for a better offer of aid.</p>
<p>I would take a free state school education over a 90k UPenn education. I would do even better at my state school and end up at UPenn or the like for graduate school. 90k richer.</p>
<p>It is truly amazing to me that kids are so brainwashed into thinking that a $90,000 debt wouldn’t be “too bad”. Unfortunately that’s what many colleges sell when speaking to both parents and students (heck, it will only be a $900 a month payment…).</p>
<p>I had an interesting experience at a private college where the Adcom presented to a number of parents how they could pay for their child’s education (about $38K annually). He suggested breaking it into quadrants, not looking at it as a daunting four-year figure of $152,000. The most humorous part of his pitch was what those quadrants were. One, the parents pay for one full year. Two, the student pay, via some type of work study/ employment, for one full year. Three, loans pay for one full year. And, the Fourth year (I simply couldn’t wait to hear what that would be), was “Serendipity”!!! Seriously I thought…a happy accident, a pleasant surprise as Websters defines it. The gall!</p>
<p>I’ll throw in the towel and agree with the most that an English/Int’l studies degree from UPenn is not worth the 90k in loans.</p>
<p>However, I stand by my original assertion I made from my first post, that 90k is well worth a degree in finance or other lucrative field from that institution. This may be moot for the TC, who will be an English major, but for business, it appears that 90k isn’t too much to pay.</p>
<p>My analysis for that major…</p>
<p>This below is for the Wharton School undergrad. </p>
<p>Out of 546 completed surveys,
32 were accepted to Goldman Sachs
17 to BCG
14 to McKinsey
10 to Bain and Company</p>
<p>So a balance of 73 were accepted to the elite of the elite. A 2 year internship at any of these companies is worth far more than 90k.
Over 100 made it to other top companies such as Credit Suisse, Morgan Stanley, or Blackrock. Also very much worth the 90k. </p>
<p>B. </p>
<p>Alumni surveys done in 2007 support the fact that Wharton undergrads have a strong future. After 10 years, their incomes are well above 100K. </p>
<p>We haven’t been given enough information to draw that conclusion.
Penn claims to meet 100% of demonstrated need. That claim would be ludicrous if they were meeting it with huge loan packages. The federal student loan limits are far lower than $90K. Penn’s CDS indicates their average n-b loan is $201.10/year. </p>
<p>Penn may have been less than generous, but they surely are not pushing a $90K loan package. From the financial information the OP submitted, Penn concluded his family could afford a certain amount from current income, savings, and “self help”. Their average self-help award is $2633.17/year. </p>
<p>The family may be unwilling to cover the EFC. If that’s the case, maybe the OP should not have applied ED. If the other schools are offering need-based aid that is much greater than what Penn is offering, then the OP ought to appeal Penn’s offer. They may have overlooked some significant information in determining need.</p>
<p>I would not allow my son to apply ED to any school where we could not afford the full tuition. Our GC told us financial aid packages are often less generous for ED applicants. Not sure if that is true or not but it was enough for me to allow EA or RD only.</p>
<p>At some schools, and Penn is definitely one of them, they encourage students who need financial aid and for whom Penn is their first choice to apply ED. They are very willing to give a release if YOU don’t think that THEIR financial aid is sufficient. They don’t want disadvantaged kids to be, well, disadvantaged since ED offers a significant boost in your admissions chances. This is all spelled out very clearly on their website. </p>
<p>At other schools (Brown if I recall), they don’t want you to apply ED if you need financial aid. </p>
<p>So there is no hard and fast rule. It’s worth checking with each school.</p>
<p>“I know a lot of people are saying I will have plenty of other options but stats wise I am on Penn’s low end with a 2080 SAT”</p>
<p>I’d still contact Penn about the amount of loans and promptly apply elsewhere.</p>
<p>LAC’s are very good places for English majors. Some have a Washington term with GU and GW for people interested in politics/international relations. Keep in mind that Penn is an annoyingly vocational place for arts & sciences.</p>