If you are an engineer or an accountant there is no union for you. Unions don’t protect the white collar crew.
When H was laid off from his engineering job at a large defense manufacturing company, he was sent home with a printout showing the age and labor grade of the 300 or so other employees affected for that particular day (this company went on to have four more layoffs within 2 years.) There were a few token 38 y/o’s but the rest were ALL 48 and older. ALL of them.
We looked into the possibility of filing an age related complaint, but really the burden of proof is intense. You have to prove you were laid off specifically because of your age i.e. people were making disparing comments about your age, how your age was affecting your job and your projects. You can’t just say you were laid off because you make too much money.
It WAS interesting to see how many job openings there were for “Engineering Intern I” and other entry related engineering jobs within months of the layoffs (shoutout to all of you whose engineering students are looking at summer internships or co-ops–always make sure and scan the local business news for the area to see what the layoff situation has been in the past two years.)
@mom2collegekids —another factor related to layoffs at middle age and up is the realization that subsequent job offers usually come in well below the salary you had achieved at your previous job. His first offer was 40K UNDER his previous salary. We could accept 5K, 10K…heck there was a point where we would’ve considered 20K under. But $40,000 UNDER?? If you are 54 when you are laid off and plan to work until 65–there is little hope you can climb the ladder that quickly to get back to your previous salary.
I am in the homes of our retired elderly on a daily basis for work. I would say 6 out of 10 are living ONLY on social security and that is a HORRIBLE situation. I haven’t been able to always figure out the cause: a lifetime of low salaried jobs? yes. A lifetime of poor choices? yes (i.e. the boat and the RV in the backyard probably shouldn’t have happened). But most of them are just hard working, nice and kind people who didn’t plan well.
Speaking of people who didn’t save well, my mom and her sister lived in San Jose, CA, were VERY frugal, and purchased a house many (30ish) years ago. Over 10 years ago, they sold the house, made lots of money (not as much as they would now, but did fine), and moved to Florida to be with their sister, so they could all help each other in retirement. The 2 sisters paid cash for their half of a beautiful house. The other sister proceeded to spend every dollar any of them had, and even took a loan against the house. The sister is not a bad person, she would probably be classified as a “giver” as opposed to a “taker” by any measure. Problem was, the sister had zero money management skills, and is basically a shop-a-holic. They wound up losing their house in the Florida real estate bust, and my mom is now living on SS alone. Of course there are many things that could have/should have been done differently.
“If you are an engineer or an accountant there is no union for you. Unions don’t protect the white collar crew.”
There still are some unions for engineers. My parents were engineers for Boeing, and their union, SPEEA, still exists, for 21,000 engineers. Not the strongest of unions though, I don’t believe. But at least they’re still there. I am still in a pretty good union, though I don’t know what collar job I have…wear a white shirt, but my collar is turning gray with particulate matter.
“I am in the homes of our retired elderly on a daily basis for work. I would say 6 out of 10 are living ONLY on social security and that is a HORRIBLE situation. I haven’t been able to always figure out the cause: a lifetime of low salaried jobs? yes. A lifetime of poor choices? yes (i.e. the boat and the RV in the backyard probably shouldn’t have happened). But most of them are just hard working, nice and kind people who didn’t plan well.”
The thing is, I think many of these people did plan as well as they could. They counted on and expected an income until retirement, and a pension. But the world changed, people laid off in their fifties are left trying to find a job, and like your husband, found the next job paid way less (if they even found one). Then lost their pension too, and their medical benefits. It’s awfully hard to plan for that, when you’ve worked in an industry for decades and then it all disappears and you’re laid off 10-15 years before retirement. I don’t even know how people can save enough to cover that.
@busdriver11 --I agree about the root cause of poverty in the elderly. Some of them are super hard working people but when you never made more than $12.00 an hour how are you supposed to save for retirement?? But then I also see some that are the result of very bad decisions too—moving on up to the McMansion and having a mortgage into your early 60s may not be such a good idea?!
That is true, carache12! I agree. Many people live on whatever income they make, and move up in lifestyle as their income grows. It’s pretty to resist, when everything is rosy at the time. But I think many just get caught in the downsizing, and their plan would have worked fine. Probably the worst thing is being forced into an early retirement, how do you pay for that?
I guess if you can make paying off and staying out of debt your obsession, you can probably make it okay, no matter what happens.
At my company they’ve basically eliminated all the positions and created new positions. They’ve shuffled functions around so we all have to reapply for a new position. That’s what I call a fancy RIF and a neat way to get around lawsuits. They are going to post the jobs externally and internally. So they get to hire who they want and keep who they want. The last go around it was all about hiring lower salaried employees. It was a significant reduction in salaries - more than half. Crazy!
So yes people over 50 are being pushed out. It’s sad.
That is sad, @newjersey17. I hope you aren’t at risk. Though for some, I guess it’s better to get that bogus new position than to get laid off, though I’d have a serious attitude problem!
We have the reverse problem at my company. They are trying to entice the older guys to stay until 65, and have offered them some deals hard to resist. I’m sure it’s because of the fact that we are unionized, everyone in the same position gets paid the same (with some small longevity jumps, but it’s all frozen after 15 years). So if the pay is the same, they’re better off keeping the old guys and paying them for productive service, than paying them a pension to not work.
I wish they would’t entice people to stay, however if I’m still here as an “old gal”, I’ll probably want them to keep doing it.
Another company similar to H’s years ago had a ‘pension’ where you were eligible to be fully vested at 10 years. CEO made sure people got ‘laid off’ at 9 years 10 months or sooner.
Sometimes the gov’t is the one that doesn’t follow their own rules. Friend proved discrimination on pay/promotions but mentally/emotionally was very difficult at the work place for a long time.
Hope everyone on this thread can hang on to the jobs they want, the insurance coverage they need, etc.
As a consultant in a niche area working with a number of large companies, I see some of the same things as @newjersey17 and others have noted. At some of our clients, McKinsey or PwC will come in and set up the whole reorg/eliminate jobs/ask everyone to apply for new jobs (or their own jobs)/RIF thing. It is highly inefficient as many of the best people choose to leave rather than see if they have a job and the company tends to be paralyzed from doing anything new for months as people wait to see who got what jobs. But, at least a couple of these companies had grown fat, with too many people and a fair bit of deadwood at middle senior levels – a lot of these people were very good at playing the political game but did not do that much to push the ball forward. So, the RIF was needed and it needed to target folks who were reasonably senior. However, if there are just layoffs, they cannot pick and choose who goes, but by defining new jobs, eliminating a layer of management, and making everyone apply for a new job (even if it was their old job) enables a company to do a better job of eliminating the deadwood but this may be true more in principle than in practice.
There is no reason other than historical accident that insurance policies should be tied to employers. Obamacare changed that somewhat, but I gather not fully (e.g., available policies may be pretty unattractive).
“Another company similar to H’s years ago had a ‘pension’ where you were eligible to be fully vested at 10 years. CEO made sure people got ‘laid off’ at 9 years 10 months or sooner.”
With a history of that, if several people were involved, that seems like an easy win in a group lawsuit.
I think that companies try to find ways to prove (rightly or wrongly) that older employees no longer have the required skill set and/or performance ratings.
Yes, 1214mom, for sure. One person, I think it will stay about the same, the other…it will plummet. However, maybe it will all be irrelevant in the long term.
I hope you are correct. I have thought about moving more to “safer” investments, but I’m already pretty conservative, so will likely just wait and see.
I figure, either way…God help us. One way I’ll get taxed like crazy, the other way, who knows what will happen. And actually, I’ve pretty much turned off my tv, with the financial worries being the least of it. I’m tired of the circus!
I was actually just thinking about the stock market in relation to if I should take D’s second semester tuition out of the 529 before the election. It’s now in a pretty conservative fund, but will still dip if the stock market goes down.
Barbalot, maybe somebody can read their crystal ball and tell us. Or I can tell you what to do, and you do the opposite (then you’ll make a ton of money)!
I think the Dow has already crossed back and forth over 18400 several times. What’s magic about that number?
Obamacare premiums are going up an average of 25% in 2017, more in some places. Insurers are bailing at a rapid pace - 1 in 5 people will have only one insurer to choose from. I fear it is imploding, and this could put a crimp in my retirement plans.
