How much do YOU think YOU need to retire? ...and at what age will you (and spouse) retire? (Part 1)

@somemom, our real estate is about 50% of our net worth. We didn’t really intend to diversify like that, but we bought a pricey home and four rental condos during the market crash, which have appreciated quite a bit. The rentals are pretty much rolling right along, with us just collecting the checks. Our renters are all nice people, we rent them way under market, and they tend to take care of most everything unless something major comes up. My husband, thankfully, is really handy, which has been very useful. Been really quiet lately.

@notrichenough, I don’t remember if I asked you this, are your rentals in a LLC? I was thinking about that, but then we just raised our umbrella insurance instead. Wondering if it would change the tax rate we’ve been paying, if we put them in a LLC. We’re getting a healthy cash flow, but it’s being taxed at 39.6%, so it doesn’t seem like such a deal.

Part of my IRA is in an REIT with TIAA-Cref. That is commercial real estate and no management reponsibility for me at all of course. It is a nice piece of diversification in the overall family portfolio.

@busdriver11 - no, our properties are not in LLCs for several reasons:

  1. the main reason for doing an LLC is for liability protection. However, when you manage your own properties, you will get personally sued as the manager if something happens, and that gets around the LLC protection.

  2. To get the full benefit of LLC protection, each property must be in its own LLC. In my state, there is a minimum tax charge of $500/yr for having the corporation, regardless if it makes money or not. This is a large expense.

  3. Setting up and running corporations requires a lot of paperwork, a lot of extra work at tax time, and you will most likely need professional help for this, which is more expense and headaches.

  4. if you have a mortgage, moving a property into an LLC can be problematic, became most mortgages become immediately due in full when the ownership of the property changes. You can try to get permission, if your mortgage is locally owned you might get it done, but otherwise they will not agree. You can do it on the down-low but this can cause problems down the road.

  5. In some states you can use a Series LLC to lower the cost, but these are not available in my state last time I checked.

We have a large umbrella insurance policy to deal with the risk. The one time we have been sued, this strategy worked perfectly as the insurance company handled everything and paid for everything. And we won!

I don’t think an LLC will help you tax-wise because LLCs are passthrough, meaning all profits and losses fall through to your personal return. So you get all the complexity and extra expense with no tax savings.

Fwiw, our properties are not in an LLC either. They are managed by a realtor who is a property manager for many properties. So far, we’ve never been sued in our decades of being landlords and hood it remains that way. We gave insurance and an umbrella policy.

Bus, what NRE said. Additionally, in WA, there is no personal income tax, but… there is the infamous B&O tax! It is paid on gross receipts - ! There is a small business credit and some other stuff… I have no idea if LLCs are subject to the B&O tax, but it sounds like it. I am not a lawyer, so if you ever consider an LLC, consult a lawyer!

It remains to be seen whether this will pass but you non-LLC landlords may be rushing to make a change if it means your rental income would be taxed at only 15% for federal.

We have two rental properties. One is owned directly. One is owned by an LLC within a trust. Transferring this with a mortgage is a real piece of work. I suspect that @busdriver11 is correct that you could still be sued as a manager, but it insulates the trust.

If what forbes writes turns out to happen per @Madison85’s post above, it would be bad for the country but great for me as my main business is an LLC. At the moment, I’m sure I’m paying a very high rate of taxes so a drop to 15% on profits would be huge. A number of my investments are in an LLC anyway, but I’d be putting as much as I could, including RE, into those LLCs. Just tax reduction. In addition, small business owners also have some control over what is compensation and what is profit and could shift from comp to profit, thereby reducing taxes. Over time, I’d invest more, which would be good for the countriy but I’m sure on net the cost to the country in lost tax revenue would be a lot higher than the benefit in potentially higher growth rates. It would probably be very good for the donor class.

That is awesome that you won the lawsuit, and didn’t have to handle it yourself!

Great information in your post, thank you. I had no idea about the passthrough for taxes. It seems like there is no good reason to put the real estate in an LLC, unless the tax law changes, as Madison mentioned. The proposal has changed often, so who knows what the final product will be. But for now, no reason to go through the expense and the hassle.

Well, I suspect that is the end goal. Pretend it’s to help the middle class, while in the end, enriching the donor class. I imagine both sides will go for it.

It was @notrichenough that mentioned being sued as a manager, not I. I suppose that’s one of the negative potential things that can happen if you manage your own properties.

If you are filling schedule C, there is no difference between profits and compensation.

If you have an s-corp, especially a single person, personal services type, there is already a lot of abuse in regards to the compensation/profit split. Can’t tell if the proposed plan will make this better or worsen the abuse.

I don’t think there’s enough details yet to tell whether LLC income from rentals would become 15% business income or not, but we can hope!

We are not landlords, but have a large umbrella policy. Supposedly, many assets are not vulnerable, but given the low cost of each additional unit of coverage, we went large. I like the comfort of knowing that Chubb’s interests will align with ours if push comes to shove.

We had a tenant slip down a few steps at 5am in the middle of a snow storm. She broke an ankle and needed surgery, rehab, etc.

She sued us for $150k.

It took three years to reach trial, after which it took the jury 15 minutes to find it was her own fault. The insurance handled everything - lawyers, depositions, the whole 9 yards. And they didn’t cancel our insurance afterwards.

It could just as easily been $1.5 million, though. We could have survived $150k, but $1.5m? Bankrupt!

When our daughter was young she slipped on an icy sidewalk at a friend’s house and broke her arm. I couldn’t believe how many people asked us if we were jogging to sue her friend’s parents.

If you have any assets at all, you are crazy not to have an umbrella policy, imo.

I don’t know if wrapping the LLC in a trust increases the asset protection if you get personally sued, but once the individual who owns the LLCs gets sued, it is at risk. The assets of the LLCs themselves might be safe but you could lose your ownership of the LLC, which amounts to the same thing, according to our “people”.

This is lawyer territory though, and your lawyer may have other strategies.

Here’s part of an email I got today from someone who specializes in business structures and taxes. It gives a little color to some of the complexities around LLCs:

Tangential to the discussion, I just renewed my homeowner’s insurance and, for the first time in 18 years, it actually dropped in price about 7%.

Question to you all financially savvy, smart CCers: how much would you be willing to pay to add 2 extra hours to your day for the next 20 years or more?

@BunsenBurner , I’d be happy to pay $1M for a guaranteed 20 years of healthy life. I’m not sure that I’d pay additionally for an extra 2 hours per day, but maybe. If my wife would retire and spend those extra hours with me, $2M.

So here is why I am asking. We have some extra cash, and we are thinking about to move to the area where my commute would be cut by 1-1.5 hours each way. It would add 5-10 min to Mr.'s 15 min commute one way. Naturally, the homes in that area are more expensive than our current house which we own mortgage-free. So technically we would still have the $$, but it will be parked in the illiquid real estate instead of being liquid and growing. Am I being a wimp?

Not wimpy at all, just deciding how you want to spend your time. But if I knew the town you were going to move to, it would be much easier to judge, as some places are awesome to live in, and that counts for something. For example, I really like some areas of Bellevue, Redmond, Kirkland, Issaquah and Woodinville, so it would be additional quality of life depending upon where you’re moving from. Plus, some areas are appreciating massively, so that would be something to look at too.

You can never get time back. I’d make the trade.