How to not let the prestige and reputation affect my thoughts on a potential college choice?

College Search & Lists
21

<p>

</p>

<p>It signals that you are smart… at a specific point in time. Who’s to say the average student who passed through the “prestige checkpoint” after high school, couldn’t become exceptional after 4 years of college? It may be less likely that this occurs from a statistical point of view, but nonetheless, it does happen.</p>

<p>Also, what about all of the exceptionally smart students who, for one reason or another, attended state schools or less-than-elite privates? Are they no longer “tagged” as exceptionally smart simply because of the name on their diploma?</p>

22

<p>

</p>

<p>Seriously. I have some exceptionally smart kids (unless taking 300 level modern and physical mechanics, etc at 17 is “avg”.) Did they lose their “smartness” b/c they have parents that cannot shell out $30,000/yr for undergrad (our EFC)? Graduating debt-free from a decent university has a lot more going for it than presuming that the name of another institution is going to smooth the path before you. There is a lot to be said about students making the most of the opportunities they actually have and making a name for themselves where they are. I think it is “looked down at” far less than high school students assume.</p>

23

<p>@ucbalumnus‌ (#12) and @lookingforward‌ (#14): Somewhat true; by specifically citing a JD (rather than Bachelor’s) degree in my post (#11), I clearly indicated just what you both have suggested. However, while a fine student from any entirely reputable university has a shot at admission to any law school, the fact is – all other things being equal – the top ten to fifteen law schools accept disproportionate numbers of applicants from the most-selective undergraduate schools. </p>

24

<p>

No argument from me. </p>

<p>

No argument from me either. </p>

<p>I don’t necessarily “like” the fact that these signals have value (except when it’s been valuable to me), but there has been economic research done on the value of “signals”, and they are not zero and can be significant. I couldn’t cite chapter and verse but I heard a graduation speech about it. </p>

<p>There was something about why successful African American men buy much more jewelery and luxury cars than successful white men with the same economic position. Because successful African American men are rarer than successful white men, the luxury goods are indented to send a subtle signal to others that they are indeed successful, which wouldn’t otherwise be the default presumption. It’s not as necessary for white men to flaunt luxury to get others to presume that they are successful. I thought that it was an interesting speech. </p>

<p>The whole idea of the signal is the presumption that people make about you because of it, for whatever that’s worth. My point was simply that it’s not zero and has some value to be weighed against other factors. </p>

<p>My Ds have turned down prestige in favor of fit (with my approval) and they are doing great. </p>

25

<p>The main way is to look outside the top 25 (or 50) schools. Put them aside for now. Ignore them. In other words, look outside the box. You know what’s inside the box. Now find out what else is out there.</p>

<p>You have to put a lot more effort into finding universities that aren’t as well known but, as @Mom2aphysicsgeek‌ pointed out, provide more opportunities to the undergraduate student. Build your list from the bottom up - find good safeties where you would be not only content to attend but where you are excited by what it offers. Fiske’s Guide to Colleges is a good resource. If you like small colleges, take a look at but don’t limit yourself to Colleges That Change Lives.</p>

26

<p>@SlakerMomMD: Bravo (I especially endorse Colleges that Change Lives)! </p>

27

<p>@warblersrule thank you for the great advice. </p>

28

<p>@SlackerMomMD‌ thank you. I will try looking for the right college for me through those strategies.</p>

29

<p>Re post #13 - the student population pool (Duke UG) is already skewed - the admission criteria for Duke Undergrad and the ones that finish their UG at Duke and then apply to medical school. You have a very high stat pool to start.</p>

<p>Nothing against those programs - I know a brilliant man that went to Duke UG and then Medical School there; my former boss went UG at Duke and then another medical school.Both came from families that had no difficulty paying the tuition - and the one actually was a recruited athlete (football; although he was on the HS basketball state championship team).</p>

<p>Many students at in-state public colleges quickly switch out of considering medical school, esp after organic chem. Smart students do understand - or they may find out when they have a low MCAT score.</p>

<p>A high stat student that does the right things in UG does not have to go into major debt at UG level (to an expensive OOS or selective private university). However if family has the money to spend, and the student and the parents are willing to part with the $$$, have them go at it and go OOS, selective private, etc.</p>

<p>I have a nephew in first year law school now - he is high stat (was Rhodes Finalist - he did go to an expensive private, but had a good scholarship and graduated with a triple major as well as a US Senator intern semester; already has a PhD, published professional book in his field; taught in tenure track university). He is at home state law school which has a great reputation. I think he will be able to go where he wants to go with his law degree. I believe they gave him a full tuition scholarship. He weighed out cost/benefit for other law schools, and I believe he was offered scholarship at other schools.</p>

<p>Law schools have not limited enrollments to the market, and there are lots of law schools and lots of lawyers that are looking for work. Supply and demand. Many new lawyers are working essentially as paralegals to start.</p>

<p>Some MDs may have to work in more remote areas where the jobs may be - who knows with the health care systems’ disruptions with reimbursements and insurance being topsy-turvy and so many unknowns. It does seem demand for MDs is staying strong, esp as we have an aging population and of course people willing to pay for ‘concierge medical care’. </p>

30

<p>I’m less concerned with prestige than I am for “connections”. All the time my kids have been growing up in a single, lower-middle class family I’ve watched other similiar students from more metropolis areas be involved in things that we could never afford. We are so middle class that financial “need” is not great at most schools but I am looking for the “its all who you know” factor. D is very bright but we have no hooks, no connections, etc. Coming from a very small rural area, those kinds of connections are rare. So is it possible that the prestige and reputation might make a difference in the kids she eventually schools with? And, if so, how much $$ is that really worth?</p>

31

<p>I am confused by your question. What does she want to major in that the “who she knows” is going to factor into her long term career and success? </p>

32

<p>@SOSConcern‌: While I agree with the facts you’ve stated in #28, I’m not sure I actually understand your fundamental point.</p>

<p>Without question, Duke undergraduates are stringently selected and those who successfully complete the pre-med courses are even more qualified. In large measure, this results in Duke’s 85+ percent (more than twice the national average) medical school acceptance rate. Duke’s “customers” – in this situation, undergraduates and parents – knowingly invest deeply (often money, but always time, effort, and unremitting focus) to attain these sorts of outcomes. Additionally there’s a great deal of sacrifice involved – from students and their families to be sure, but also from the alumni/donors who provide the scholarship and grant funding – but evidently many individuals believe it’s entirely worthwhile, otherwise 33,000 candidates wouldn’t apply each year for 1,725 freshman spots.</p>

<p>Significantly, half of Duke’s undergraduates receive no-loan grants and scholarships. In addition, Duke guarantees a full financial aid package to every accepted undergraduate AND the loan amounts are dramatically reduced as family income decreases (for example, with a yearly household income of $85K, the current annual loan amount would be only $5K . . . the remaining costs – over $55K annually – would be financial aid grants that do not require any repayment).</p>

33

<p>I think it factors into everything. Again, my experience has been that those who are “connected” have an advantage. Starts early… good high school jobs. I have two relatives, both good students, both graduated from Umass, both graduate one semester early. Dad can afford to send them to more expensive schools but believes (like alot of otehrs here) that undergrad is less important. One gets a Raytheon job (accounting) that starts at $65K with free MA after one year. She deserves it, dont’ get me wrong. The other gets a great event planning position at $50K start, both because Dad knows someone. I don’t want to say they are not deserving, they both are, but my kid won’t have that same network. So, doesn’t the availabiltiy of connections count for something? </p>

34

<p>It hasn’t for my kids and their jobs. They have created their own paths via their work ethic on campus, LOR from professors, job references (part-time, co-op, clinicals, etc.) We don’t “know” anyone, so I am glad we are not expected to find employment for them. They stand on their own two feet and make their on way. My kids have not gone to prestigious schools and they have great jobs with great incomes.</p>

35

<p>I do understand where @nepatsgirl is coming from. One can learn from what is available to them - and of course now there is the WWW and lots more electronics resources available. However I also understand that it is ‘easier’ when a motivated student with financial resources can take advantage of a lot, and in school districts that have AP and IB programs, dual enrollment with community college or local university, etc. Sometimes it is certain teams where there is available parent coaching.</p>

<p>I do believe that if parents are ‘on the ball’, they can encourage their children and direct education at home to enrich and supplement. Look at successful students a few grades ahead of your oldest and see what they are doing and what their parents are doing.</p>

<p>Student maturity, academic aptitude, academic stats. Motivation. Making good choices in life.</p>

<p>If parents help guide the student with seeking out college opportunities that are in budget, or if desire is to keep within certain distance from home. Also if student has great test taking skills (ACT or SAT, try each once to see if can score better on one or the other). Notice what it takes with admissions, scholarships, financial aid. </p>

<p>Purchase and read cover to cover US News Best Colleges (should be on news stands till Jan 26 2015 (like at Barnes and Noble) - or can buy on-line access. That way you can get familiar with the colleges in your area and can look at the school web sites for more in-depth info.</p>

<p>How soon does one utilize ‘connections’? Jobs (and those with higher pay) are more available often in bigger cities. It doesn’t hurt to have relatives and friends that can help advise you in career path and opportunities for students in and after college - internships, cooperative education, summer experiences.</p>

<p>Some careers have a heavier demand, straightforward on pay right out of UG.</p>

<p>Not really fair to dangle how wonderful Duke is when only 5.2% of applicants are accepted for the 1,725 freshmen spots. And half have clearly no financial need that are accepted.</p>

<p>DD2 adjusted her career path and career thinking - she wasn’t going to be able to afford her lifestyle in an area that could be her hobby instead of her paid job. She is strong in math and science, and is doing well in civil eng - and actually is planning to concentrate in architectural design which satisfies her creative drive. She did get a summer internship with a connection (knew where to send paperwork; got the phone interview and the job based on qualifications and recommendations). </p>

<p>As they say, when you are number two, you try harder. Getting the foot in the door - yes connections sometimes help. However employers come to do career fairs and campus interviews, so the students at that campus do have those opportunities. </p>

<p>HS students may have an idea of what a major or career will be like - they may be totally disillusioned. Parents could be disillusioned too, or maybe not having enough information to evaluate.</p>

<p>Hope some of this information is of help.</p>

36

<p>Neither of my kids had HS jobs - concentrated on academics; volunteer hours required by their school; concentrated on raising ACT (when they both did better than SAT). Took full advantage of the AP courses offered at their school. Received scholarships way beyond what a paid job could have given them. They have since that time had paid jobs in college (one has a few hours every week during school year and curriculum requires summer between jr/sr year; other has summer job)…</p>

37

<p>@SOSConcern‌ in post #34: “Not really fair to dangle how wonderful Duke is when only 5.2% of applicants are accepted for the 1,725 freshmen spots. And half have clearly no financial need that are accepted.”</p>

<p>I am very confused. Evidently, you have largely misread/misinterpreted my post #31, specifically:
a) I stated that Duke receives approximately 33,000 applications annually for about 1,725 freshman seats. Those are verifiable facts. However, Duke’s admission rate is 10.8 percent (not 5.2 percent, as you erroneously indicated). You apparently neglected to consider the concept of “yield;” not every admitted applicant will opt to attend any college.
b) Furthermore, what does “half have clearly no financial need that are accepted” mean/imply? Are universities only supposed to admit those with severe financial need, or possibly those with little or no financial need? In addition, is there something wrong with having succeeded sufficiently that one can – often with real struggle and sacrifice – afford to finance his children’s educations? I truly have NO idea what you intended to say.</p>

38

<p>

</p>

<p>That is probably due to selection bias – the most selective undergraduate schools have a higher density of stronger students who can get high grades in college and high standardized test (i.e. LSAT) scores. But that does not mean that a strong student at a less selective school will necessarily do worse for law school admissions than if s/he attended a more selective school.</p>

39

<p>OK @toptier Duke can only take in 5.2% of applicants based on your statistics. Interesting that 5.6% of admitted decide to go to school somewhere else (that would be interesting to know - was it $$ consideration or something else?) </p>

<p>The majority of college applicants to attend as freshman fall 2015 cannot benefit from attending Duke University. Only 33,000 put in applications. A small number considering the number of college applicants overall, but also a strong indicator that students do want in.</p>

<p>In my view it is better to provide info that is helpful to the majority of college applicants. I think OP was thinking about prestige in general, not any particular school. </p>

<p>Many parents have to decide if a ‘prestigious’ school that their student can get admitted to is 1) affordable for them; 2) cost/effective; 3) meets other family considerations. Many parents’ budgets will limit application choices, or the other family considerations. A student can only borrow a relatively small amount freshman year w/o an adult co-signing a loan. </p>

<p>Many articles have been written about these topics.</p>

<p>Who knows if OP has the stats to ‘win’ an acceptance to a highly selective school, or if parents would support the out of pocket to attend. Doesn’t hurt for a HS junior to think about these things, but better to communicate with parents and visit some schools to see what might be a good ‘fit’.</p>

<p>We all know Duke is an excellent school. As @ucbalumnus has said, they have a high density of strong students (as I have said in a slightly different way).</p>

40

<p>This thread isn’t really about Duke. It’s more about recognizing that what one thinks of certain schools (prestige, connections, job chances, etc) doesn’t bestow some fairy dust. Sure, some firms recruit at the top- but that is zero guarantee you’ll catch the brass ring, just for being there. You have to do the hard work, have the vision and savvy, push yourself, acquire what the working world (or grad school) wants from you. That’s on the kid. </p>

<p>Connections are iffy. The real value in going to a school with lots of smart kids is that the bar is generally set higher (in class, in discussions, in present interests and future goals. More kids do come in with better prep and readiness.) Same for schools where more kids are driven toward challenging careers. It makes a nice pool. But your kid still has to be able to master that environment, not just “be there.” </p>