Agree with @DadTwoGirls . Of course it depends on the teacher and the school but at our HS AP Euro is a very difficult and time consuming course while AP Psych seems to have a much more manageable workload. If you are looking to avoid overloading your D be sure you speak with people in your HS (guidance counselor, people how have taken the classes) and get a sense of the relative workloads of these two classes before making a change.
No, she didnât say that at all. She said that the daughter had looked at some literature from Wesleyen, and visited Wesleyen â and since then has volunteered other colleges the daughter may be interested in. She mistakenly assumed that because Wesleyen wants calculus, other similarly selective colleges would be the same ⊠but thatâs not the case.
The daughter is a rising high school senior who probably only just starting the process of exploring and narrowing the college list.
As @compmom noted upthread, âinstead of fitting the kid to schools, you can fit the schools to the kid.â Does a kid who is interested in theater and humanities take calculus when she would prefer stats, because some ad com says they like kids with calculus on their high school record? Or does she find a college that loves its humanities and theater majors, with or without calculus?
Which college is she likely to be happier at?
âinstead of fitting the kid to schools, you can fit the schools to the kid.â
I think that this is a very good thing to keep in mind. Find a school that matches what you want to do, and not the other way around.
It has been a very long time since I attended university. However, I find the discussion of how important it is to take calculus in high school sort of odd, since I did NOT take calculus in high school, but nonetheless earned a bachelor of science in math at MIT. I actually liked the calculus class at MIT, and one good thing about it was that it was a relatively small class since most students had already taken AP calculus in high school.
To be fair, later in the article the Tufts admin officer also said,
âDoing well in high school is important and getting into college is important, but you should place a premium on your own happiness and well-being. There are 3,000-4,000 colleges in the US, and a handful of âgood fitsâ for every student.â
The cynic in me thinks that they all say that, but donât believe it, so Iâd still recommend Calc over Stats if sheâs aiming for that level of school.
A mother I know was specifically told by an Adcom at Pomona that her D should have at least AP Calc AB to be considered (Scripps was okay with her just having Pre-Calc). Apparently, the AP Calc teacher at her Dâs high school was really bad, so she ended up taking Calc through dual enrollment. For the record, this kid was applying ED and she had a music professor in her corner lobbying for her.
Youâve already said that your D is good in math â why give a top tier school a reason not to admit her? If it were a subject that she hated or struggled with, thatâs another matter, but thereâs no reason for her to not challenge herself in a subject she does well in.
What other history classes does she have? APUSH is highly recommended, and I would think that either AP World OR AP Euro should be on the transcript for a humanities kid.
^
The parent is not describing a lazy kid unwilling to be challenged academically. In fact, the reason for this thread was given twice by the OP: the daughter is exhausted and stressed out, parent worried about mental health. Although the daughterâs exhaustion was such the parents have planned nothing beside writing college essays for her summer, I donât think we can assume taking a greater academic load next year, when there are applications to take care of, will make senior year any less exhausting. Why risk a senior year flame out or a serious health issue brought on by exhaustion and stress?
Sorry, no matter what, âhoping to get into Wesleyanâ doesnât justify exhaustion, stress, and risking health issues.
What if the student takes calculus only in the hopes of getting into Wesleyan, suffers physically and mentally, and then doesnât get into Wesleyan? Because thatâs the likeliest outcome.
Also, OP has already stated the HS only offers limited APâs (3 senior year is the maximum); itâll be taken into account when reviewing the transcript.
Although it seems Iâm shouting in the desert, I continue to maintain that the combination of AP Stats, AP Euro, and AP Lit (+ drama as an elective) is better than the combination of AP Calc, AP Psych, and AP Lit for a Humanities kid, especially one whoâs exhausted. Honors calculus or post-precalc âmath analysisâ rather than AP stats would be okay, but wonât change anything in terms of admissions, and since she can only take 3 APâs, the âcoreâ or âhardâ ones should be in the Humanities/Social Science.
WRT the Tufts adcom comment: Of course AP Stats is easier than calculus, focusing on this is missing the point. AP Spanish is harder than PLTW Discovering Engineering, but for a future Engineering major PLTW would make more sense. Classes arenât random. Itâs about the picture they paint. The OPâs daughterâs transcript wonât paint the picture of an unmotivated kid who eschews challenges, but rather of a kid who knows her strengths, takes a challenging schedule to maintain academic balance yet presents a clear picture of who they are. This would likely be complemented with relevant ECâs in drama, writing, production, etc.
Regarding ECâs: colleges donât look at it in terms of hours but in terms of impact. What did you actually do, what was the result, can you measure it in some way beside âtime spentâ, did it benefit anyone/improve anything/produce something?
âAlthough it seems Iâm shouting in the desert, I continue to maintain that the combination of AP Stats, AP Euro, and AP Lit (+ drama as an elective) is better than the combination of AP Calc, AP Psych, and AP Lit for a Humanities kid, especially one whoâs exhausted. Honors calculus or post-precalc âmath analysisâ rather than AP stats would be okay, but wonât change anything in terms of admissions, and since she can only take 3 APâs, the âcoreâ or âhardâ ones should be in the Humanities/Social Science.â
lol, I actually agree with this, for a more reasonable workload, AP Euro, AP Lit and a Math Analysis kind of course is probably the better option.
This seems a good place to share this:
I recently learned there are some jealousy issues over Dâs rank because it is high but she doesnât take all honors and APs.
However, GPA is weighted so all of that is taken into consideration in her schoolâs ranking system.
I donât understand why kids should feel bad if D has made choices based on her interests and what works for her.
Sheâs not only getting good grades in the regular classes, she actually gets among the highest grades in her honors and AP classes, too. She also goes above and beyond for assignments and preparing for exams.
And personally, I think that combination of self-motivation and knowing her limits will probably serve her very well in life.
The jealousy factor concerning rank is crazy these days and I think schools should just eliminate it. Except for scholarships that go to the top one or two students, rank is not important in admissions anyway.
I also agree with this: 'Although it seems Iâm shouting in the desert, I continue to maintain that the combination of AP Stats, AP Euro, and AP Lit (+ drama as an elective) is better than the combination of AP Calc, AP Psych, and AP Lit for a Humanities kid,"
I know personally at least one kid who didnât do calculus (or a 4th year of science) and got into a very tippy top school. That student made choices based on interest and wasnât interested in elite schools until actually applying. You just never know.
So it is a shame to go through stress taking things you donât want to take when the effect on admissions is uncertain, but the effect on your life balance is very certain.
Exactly, and about the story they tell.
The ad coms get flooded with thousands of applications that all pretty much look the same: same array of high school courses, ECâs chosen from the same array of activities, clubs & sports typically offered at high schools â all have high grades, high test scores â so what distinguishes them? So yeah, the bored ad com is going to tell the random applicant to take a tough high school class on the off chance it might help distinguish their application from the masses.
And every year kids like that with near perfect stats and activities and, yes, AP Calc, get bumped by kids whose app paints a more intriguing picture. Which is why my kid could get accepted to schools like Barnard & Chicago with a 27 ACT and no math beyond algebra 2.
Going into senior year itâs probably too late for an applicant to reinvent themselves, so the ad reps give advice about senior course selection.
But Iâm thinking that the OPâs daughterâs story might lie in her theater interest (from the OP: "She does many many hours of EC. ALL her choice, not mine. I have suggested less this club or less shows, she loves theatre and wants to minor in that") - and if thatâs the case, that senior year Drama class would be a lot more important than calculus. +Drama shows continued, sustained interest.
Which is a perfectly acceptable and appropriate option for a stressed out kid ⊠but in the greater scheme of things that summer of doing nothing in particular could be more hurtful to the application process than AP Stats v. AP Calc. Simply because she will be competing for admissions against some kids who are doing intriguing or amazing things over their summers, much of which may provide fodder for winning college essays.
Iâm not saying that the mom should rush out and sign her daughter up for some sort of resume-building activity over the summer â just that it is no more or less significant in the greater scheme of things.
Since the daughter is interested in theater, perhaps she could have get involved with a local community theaterâs summer productions â it could be an activity that would be fun and relaxing for her, but also show a continued commitment to an activity on her college apps.
Applying for college is kind of like applying for a role in a theater production. Everyone seems to want to play the lead, but the supporting roles are often the most interesting ones and college applicants can increase their chances of admission if they know what role they are applying for, and can identify the colleges which need or want students to fill those roles.
@calmom please tell us how your child got into Univ of Chicago with a 27 ACT? Any hooks? That is highly, highly unusual.
I agree with @calmom that the OPâs D should do something this summer. I think thatâs important. If itâs tied in to theater that would be fun for her and show continuity. Take an acting class, take stage combat or improv. A little volunteering. Just do something, from what I keep hearing.
@citymama9 â my daughter figured out what role she was applying for, and (with some help from me) figured out that Chicago probably needed students to fill that role.
Plus she wrote an application that was probably a lot of fun for the ad coms to read.
Find the Role Student can best fill at potential college choices, choose senior year courses that best tell the studentâs story, and choose the college that best fits the student.
âAnd every year kids like that with near perfect stats and activities and, yes, AP Calc, get bumped by kids whose app paints a more intriguing picture. Which is why my kid could get accepted to schools like Barnard & Chicago with a 27 ACT and no math beyond algebra 2.â
I wouldnât take one data point and generalize it. Chicago loves high stats students as well - the five kids that got into Chicago from a local high school had average of 2300 (35) and 3.9 (UW), 750-800 on SAT2s and and a boatload of APs. Iâm not sure the intriguing picture they painted.
Yes, but the point is that if oneâs âroleâ is âhigh stat student with boatload of APâsâ ⊠there is a huge amount of competition for that role â thatâs the one that everyone things is the path to admission, so the top colleges are deluged with students like that⊠and thatâs why a course like AP Calc becomes something of a tie breaker. If all the student really has to offer is high stats and APâs, then it helps to be the best at that. But again, a whole lot of other students in that same pool.
And as far as the college is concerned, those students are indistinguishable and it doesnât really matter which they select from that pool. The value they add as a group is that they run up the stats â freeing up spots for kids like my D. who could come in without damaging the spread. After all, no matter what, there is going to be a bottom 25%, and it really doesnât matter for rankings how low those numbers go, as long as the break point remains about the same.
But colleges have needs.They have departments to run and activities they want maintained. My kid had a particular strength the corresponded with an academic need that many colleges were facing (severely declining enrollment in a once very popular major that had fallen out of favor) â and I could identify which colleges had the need by looking at the âstatsâ on the college end. D had something to offer, for which she was uniquely well qualified, and it was something the college clearly needed. Was that a guarantee of admission? Obviously not⊠but it ended up working for my D. across the board â every reach college we had identified as a âneeds Xâ school admitted her. She attended Barnard, not Chicago, and we got confirmation when the college assigned the head of the X department to be her adviser. (Barnard pairs its students with regular faculty as advisers).
And given that colleges do have needs, it is likely that the reason one cookie-cutter high stat, loaded AP student gets in over another may very well be needs that are not apparent to the applicant, but known to the ad com. Maybe one high stat kid helps with geographic diversity, whereas another high stat kid seems eager to study in a major that is already over-subscribed.
The OP really hasnât said much about her daughter to distinguish her, other than the kid has a strong interest in theater. The kid may do well to identify colleges with strong theater departments and traditions, but which are not dream school destinations for aspiring theater majors â in other words, not NYU Tisch, because every theater kid in the country thinks they want to go there â but colleges that need to accept a critical mass in order to keep their theater programs alive and thriving.
Iâm new to this thread, but I agree that each student needs to do whatâs best for them and fits their personality. With that said, If the applicant is good in math and is choosing between AP Stats and AP Calc, I would go with Calc just because it is safer. But I definitely do NOT have a problem with her taking a non-AP science because sheâs not interested in scienceâŠI would say thatâs a very smart move. I also agree with the sentiment that a person who knows their own limits and is true to themselves will be better positioned for success in life. This isnât a âcop outâ or an example of someone not challenging themselves. Itâs someone being true to themselves. I think the top schools can tell the difference.
My daughter was valedictorian this year and she and the boy that was 2nd applied to a few of the same schools. My daughter took AB Calc and he took BC Calc. He took AP Physics and she just took accelerated physics. They both had great applications, but my daughter probably had the more well rounded one with being a 4 year varsity athlete and really strong community service. My daughter ended up doing better in the end with admissions. She got in to some schools he did NOT, including an Ivy League school (which she has chosen NOT to attend).
So this is just one example and it may not mean anything, but as it relates to rigor, he had more than her and she did better. And she is going to her top choice. Ironically, the school he is going to was a school she also had applied to and when she got in to her top choice EA, she withdrew her app from the other school and he did get in RD and is going there. He totally may have gotten in anyway, but my daughter didnât want to give him unnecessary competition.
The most important underlying theme here, IMO, is STRESS. There is so much pressure on these kids, especially the overachieving ones that just want a fair shot at a top school. At the end of the day, I think the kids that get through this whole process (even the ones that donât get in to the tippy top schools) without over stressing are going to be the happiest and most âsuccessfulâ (depending on how you define success). As parents, we need to help guide our children to make decisions that will best impact their overall well being. Itâs a lot easier said than done and I struggle with it every day as I have three over-achievers that put way too much pressure on themselves. Trying to guide them to reach their goals and stay sane at the same time is extremely challenging.
I had one, and spent my childrearing years trying to be the voice of moderation. If the kid is in fact an over-achiever, then she doesnât need parental coaching in the âachieve moreâ department. (The under-achiever would have different needs â those are the kids who might need some parental prodding and encouragement to get off the couch or to try new things and take a few risks, but they are far less likely to be aspiring to so called âtopâ colleges).
@calmom â cookie cutter is a pretty demeaning term, they have other things going for them, not just the stats, they got into other excellent schools as well. They donât go to the library every day, they do a lot of ECs and volunteer things and are involved. You have a good point on the unique major, the admitted students in the local high school applied to the more traditional majors - science - pre-med, physics, economics - pre-law, maybe a foreign language.
I used that term to characterize the p.o.v. of the ad coms, not the applicants themselves. What distinguishes them?
The admissions readers are swamped-- they really only have a few minutes to devote to reading each application. They are going to scan very quickly and most of the apps are going to blend together in their minds. A âlot of ECâs and volunteer thingsâ falls right into that category if they are the same array of ECâs that high school students typically participate in.
What stands out to the admissions reader? Which file are they going to remember the following day?
You really need to envision things from the perspective of the humans who have to weed through thousands of applications from smart kids who are really, really good at high school. And the readers are going to scan very quickly, pick up on information that stands out from the rest⊠and if it isnât there, well it is just as easy for that file to end up in the waitlist or reject pile as to end up in the accept pile.