Nope - not even close - open about 8 bottles of wine a year I would say. Was double-fisted drinker in college myself; first in line at the tap. I slowed down a lot when I got older (in grad school) and really pretty went to a trickle when I had kids, I never had more than two drinks in front of my kids ever and made sure they never saw me tipsy or drunk in any way.
I thought about that one also MomofWildChild…but if the reports that she told people to go away who banged on the bathroom door are verified, that shows that at least at some point she was powering under her own steam .I believe the Vanderbilt victim was passed out much like the Stanford victim when she was assaulted. To me there are some very important differences. In one case a reasonable person might not know she was a black-out type person who probably could use help, they would think she was doing what she wanted to do and by the same token a reasonable person should know when someone is passed out which is clearly criminal assault.
To start, a disclaimer: Other people may know more about this than I do. My knowledge comes from prior reading, NPR, and a recent internet search.
However, as I understand it, the blackout phenomenon refers to the inability to form memories, during the blackout phase. It appears to be more frequently associated with rapid consumption of alcohol, as opposed to total consumption. So it seems possible to me that a person could be in a blackout state, and it might not be detectable by others right away. I am not clear enough on the UVa facts, nor on the mechanism of blackout to know whether one could enter a blackout state without showing clear signs of intoxication, and only subsequently appear to be intoxicated (even within a matter of 5 to 10 minutes).
One very useful thing that I learned from a quick search: If you are uncertain about whether someone is experiencing blackout, a good test is to ask them about something that happened 15 minutes ago. If they are experiencing blackout, they generally won’t be able to answer.
This test would provide one extra layer of protection for a man, if his partner appears to be capable of consenting, but is actually experiencing blackout. It would also be useful for the friends of a person who is experiencing blackout, but would not detect that otherwise. If blackout was indicated, the person could be helped to get home safely.
The test is not complete, because there is also fragmentary blackout. But it would be better than nothing.
Another interesting observation, based on the Wikipedia article: People who have experienced blackout have more difficulty with narrative memory than with “cued” memory. This might be the basis of figuring out what actually happened during a blackout. The central difficulty with this is that the lab tests of “cued” memory involve sober individuals who know what is actually going on, in order to make the “cuing” accurate. If no one knows for sure what happened, then the “cuing” might inadvertently plant false memories. This seems interesting to pursue, from a purely clinical perspective, and might turn out to be useful at some point.
- @musicprnt She didn't freak because she didn't remember and file charges without trying to find out what happened according to the article. She freaked, got friends to help her find out and tried to deal with it without asking for help for months. She wasn't the one who brought it to any authority attention.
- @awcntdb the article said he freaked and left her but I believe it also said he thought he had a fantastic night until she confronted him with the blackout. He claims to remember all of the details. He claims to have done nothing wrong. Nothing wrong. According to his own statements, she didn't abandon him. She didn't leave him vulnerable. So I don't see that part as a double standard. I also didn't claim she did nothing wrong or that she was smart and responsible.
- @raclut I also find her excessive drinking alarming. I can't say for sure I find the rest of her actions alarming since I don't see that we can be see what they were... But I also find his actions alarming. I have two daughters and I've had lots of conversations not only about the dangers of excessive drinking, but also about avoiding situations where groups of male athletes and fraternities are drinking. I can only hope that they will be aware when the day comes that I am not there to protect them.
My son is a kid that just helps others naturally (he gets his kindness from my wife). He is still a few years away from college, but from reading incidents like this, one very important thing I want to teach him before he heads to college is:
“Do not physically help any drunk girls if you are alone. Do not pick them up if they have fallen. Do not help them home. Instead, if a girl is obviously in bad shape, call campus security and wait with the person until they arrive, and let them take care of it.”
It is too easy for a drunk or blacked out girl to blame someone, even a guy trying to help. The wrestler was lucky he didn’t get blamed.
His parents should have taught him appropriate rules and manners many years ago.
@MaterS Rules and manners should be taught to all children, not just boys .
This kid didn’t help a drunk girl, so that advice had nothing to do with “incidents like this”. Actually, the kid who apparently did help her was seemingly the most honorable kid in the situation.
But I agree that the better action would have been calling 9-1-1. I guarantee though that it would have caused him worse social problems than that of the kid in the subject of this story.
I know my #3 has helped drunk women, I’ve talked about it before. I don’t think he’s ever done this by himself …maybe once, but I might have misunderstood the story…more than alone is probably alot safer than dealing with a inebriated woman alone which makes them legally vulnerable. I think it’s tough for kids to know when to call 9-1-1, clearly the cop thought that the young man getting the drunk girl home was an OK decision or he would have done something else. I’ve already said she’s lucky she didn’t get an MIP ticket stuffed in her pocket. I think police around college campuses are pretty saavy to that scenario of some guy or guys helping people to get home.
These threads tend to be very repetitive, but this is a very interesting comment that really hit home with me.
One key issue is … are alcoholic “blackouts” actually a real thing and can they happen to people who seem to be only moderately drunk to an unbiased observer? (By “blackouts” I mean that the person seems to be functioning somewhat normally but their brain is incapable of forming memories)
I’m trying to think of an analogy that would apply to me as a middle-aged man … Suppose I’d gotten really drunk and woke up the next morning with little memory of the previous night. The next day a guy shows up at my house saying that I’d agreed to make a large investment in the restaurant/bar where we’d been drinking the previous night. I tell him to get lost. He produces a signed contract. I tell him that I have no memory of even talking about investing in his bar, and he either forged my signature or made me sign something when I was drunk out of my mind. A few impartial witnesses then show up, testifying about how I didn’t seem to be extremely drunk and about how I kept talking about how I really loved good food and my dream was always to be a part owner of a top-end restaurant.
Here’s the point. It wouldn’t matter to me what the witnesses said - even if there was videotape of me seeming to walk and talk coherently while I was signing the contract. There’s no way I would ever agree to empty my IRA and invest in a restaurant of someone who I barely knew. There is absolutely nothing you could do or say, no evidence you could present, that would convince me that I did it voluntarily while I was in a state to be able to consent. To me, the fact that I don’t remember signing the contract is itself proof that I wasn’t able to consent. Period. There is no way I’d feel morally obligated to honor the contract, and I tell him to sue me if he wanted to enforce it.
I would go to my grave believing that I’d been wronged even if a court and a 1000 unbiased people looked at the videotape evidence and told me that I seemed to be sober enough, so I had to honor the contract.
I wonder if something like this is a factor in cases like the one being discussed? If the girl at UVa is reacting the way I know that I would in my analogy, then I can understand how she’s absolutely convinced she was raped.
Personally, although I have gotten extremely drunk several times when I was in college, I don’t think I ever experienced a “blackout” state (though how I think I know that is itself an interesting epistemological question). For all I know, the people who claim to have suffered from “blackout” are lying. Are there any serious medical studies of this?
My only other comment is about the amount of alcohol consumption during the pre-gaming. The UVa woman says she had 5 drinks before going out. I don’t know over what time period she consumed them, but it was probably over an hour or so. Also, I know most young people don’t really know that a “drink” of 90 proof alcohol is only 1 1/2 ounces, which is pretty small … they tend to think of a “drink” as being more like 3 or more ounces. Even when I was drinking most weekends in college as a 190 pound guy, 5 drinks in an hour would definitely get me pretty drunk. I would imagine a 130 pound college woman would be pretty messed up.
“She was completely unconscious and remembered nothing the next day. I believe she was drugged, but that never became part of the trial, since there was video and pictures that proved what happened.”
I know that roofies do exist and are used. But I find most of the claims of female victims being roofied highly suspect when the female victim (as in the Vandy case) was admittedly drinking heavily. The effects of downing a lot of alcohol in a short period of time are essentially identical to that of a roofie.
Most likely, the Vandy victim (like many other drunk victims who claim to be drugged) “self-roofied” by means of liquor shots. Sure it is possible that the very drunk Vandy football player would have planned out in advance a plot to give his own girlfriend (who was already very drunk) a roofie in a public place so that other guys (but not himself) would be able to assault her later in a different place. But a lot more plausible that he just bought her additional drinks in the course of a party night. Then the amount of alcohol she consumed at some point turned off the memory drive and, a bit later, completely turned off consciousness.
The UVA case is different mostly because the kids did the deed on short notice on the spot in the bathroom while the girl was still sensient. Had they waited to get back to their apartment or dorm room, the girl would have passed out. If the guy continued to proceed, then you’d get a Stanford or Vandy situation.
"There’s no way I would ever agree to empty my IRA and invest in a restaurant of someone who I barely knew. There is absolutely nothing you could do or say to convince me that I did it voluntarily while I was in a state to be able to consent. "
The difference is — you’re correct that it would be out of character to empty your IRA on a whim – that kind of thing just doesn’t happen. Likewise, no one would believe that you “consented” to give your wallet or your car keys voluntarily to a guy on the street you didn’t know. But people consent voluntarily to sex all the time – even with alcohol in their systems. IOW, it looks an awful lot like an act that really does go on.
northwesty- I’m not going to sidetrack this into a discussion of the Vanderbilt case, but it is clear you know nothing about it.
The speculation about what happened and what would’ve happened that is posted with such certainty on this thread never ceases to amaze me.
I don’t deny that you’ve got a point. Maybe I could come up with a better analogy … this was one that just popped into my head.
However, even in my analogy I’m not just giving away the money - I’m buying an ownership stake in a restaurant - so it’s not completely crazy. A lot of people do make investments (even bad ones) or enter into business deals while they’re out drinking and even make big decisions on a spur of the moment basis.
Also, maybe to the UVa girl the notion of her having sex in a bathroom with a strange guy she just met is just as crazy as buying a stake in a stranger’s restaurant would be to you and I.
I think a lot of women I know might feel this way.
Anyway, the point of my analogy is this: perhaps if someone has sex while they’re in a “blackout” state - even if they seem “ok” to an unbiased observer - there is no way that they won’t be 100% convinced that they were raped.
@Pizzagirl , you asked about the difference between this case and the Turner case. One difference, if I am not mistaken, is that the young woman at the Stanford party was not reported to be flirting with or making out with Turner at the party. It almost sounded as if she wandered outside looking for her friends, followed and/or encouraged to do so by Turner, who had exhibited weird behavior with women at parties before, and he pounced on her either immediately before or after she collapsed unconscious by the dumpster. It seemed like an accidental destination.
Sage advice @hebegebe. I could see my son trying to help someone too, and I like your idea.
"northwesty- I’m not going to sidetrack this into a discussion of the Vanderbilt case, but it is clear you know nothing about it. "
Here’s the testimony in the Vandy case. Decide for yourself. Pre-game drinks to start. Then “about seven” drinks at the bar. The last drink at the bar was the blue drink. Victim testified she’d never been more drunk in her life.
"According to her testimony, she and some friends drank at her apartment the night of June 22 prior to taking a cab to Tin Roof shortly before midnight. She said a woman named Angie bought her drinks — like Angie did for many other student-athletes. The alleged victim had a gin and tonic and a Fireball shot.
She met Vandenburg at the bar. “We just saw each other,” she said when asked whether he was looking for her. She said he gave her a blue drink, which she gave away when she started feeling too drunk.
She said the next thing she remembers is waking up around 8 a.m. in an unfamiliar room."
Consolation - that’s not my understanding - I do believe she was dancing with him inside the party and the two of them left together - but I may be misremembering. I do not remember that it was a situation of … she walked / stumbled outside, and that’s when he popped up on the scene.
It is not mentioned in the article but did Lind go for a medical examination (the following day) when she had a doubt about being sexually assaulted?