How Wealthy Families Manipulate Admissions at Elite Universities

Well, since you’ve so graciously offered me the last word, @LadyMeowMeow, I’ll use it to suggest that if you have the opportunity and haven’t been able to do so before, I’d recommend you take some time and visit Harvard. Meet some students (maybe even some of those cursed souls whose Harvard careers have been tainted by the fact that their families made some donations before or after they were admitted :wink: ). Talk with some of the faculty about their teaching and research. Investigate the facilities and their condition. Talk to the people at the development office about what they do and how they do it. Hear from the admissions office firsthand what they look for and how they make their decisions. Get a sense from the administrators what their priorities and needs are. Finally, study the finances.

As you’ve probably inferred by now, I have a longstanding connection to the university, and have spent a lot of time there over the years doing all of the above. Harvard is enormous, far too decentralized, sometimes disconcertingly corporate and frequently exasperating. Undoubtedly, it could be managed better. It is also an astonishing, amazing place, populated largely (but not exclusively) by incredibly talented and interesting people, instantiating nearly 400 years of history and every day making the world different and better in all kinds of ways. While many things seem never to change at Harvard, it is more fragile than you might think.

My responses to you have been informed by all of this, and a knowledge that no single person can begin to comprehend Harvard in all its wonder and vastness, even someone who’s spent most of their life involved there. All one can do is always be aware of Harvard’s status as a national and world treasure, and seek not to do anything that could diminish that.

@philbegas, if you have bookmarked this thread by pressing the star under the thread title (it turns yellow when you hit it to bookmark it), just hit that star again and it should “unbookmark” this thread.

@Nrdsb4 I didn’t, I just commented quite a few pages ago before this extensive argument lol

^^^Hmm, I’m not sure then. Anyone else know?

@QuantMech, I think there were a lot more Gentleman C types when I attended than there are now. At the time, I’d say it was not so much that they were dumb, as that they had guaranteed jobs with Daddy, so they didn’t have to work that hard. The world has changed a lot since then. I don’t think it hurt Harvard to have some people who were a little more relaxed. It seems a more intense and driven place now. Though even then there were plenty of driven types, some by academics, but even more by their various extra curricular activities. It never ceased to amaze me how many of our current generation of comics started at the Harvard Lampoon.

Gates is rich enough to start his own university if he wanted to. And without all the legacy administration, infrastructure / technology, it could be cutting edge with great resources, modern curriculum. It could be a pipeline to tech startups. No need for him to bribe a legacy institution.

If he chose to.

All this fuss and muss about Harvard.

@ClarinetDad16 - that sounds a lot like Olin. :smiley:

I view this as part of the problem, although by no means confined to Harvard. If the top schools had more transparency about how they select applicants, they would get far fewer applications from students with no shot of getting in, and those students could focus on schools where they have more realistic prospects. For students starting high school, this would provide valuable information on what to do to have the strongest application. While the GC at the top BS and a handful of public schools already know how the game is played, the GC at most public schools tend to be only slightly more informed than the parents.

I am really not trying to be argumentative here @roethlisburger , but don’t they really do that already? Isn’t it discussed here ad infinitum that the best way into the elites is to do extraordinary things such as win national prizes, make it to RSI and other camps, get published, invent something impressive, be a nationally ranked athlete, discover something? Out of reach of most humans, yes… but that is how it is done. on top of that they all publish the common data set, don’t they?

What kind of transparency are you looking for? What type of information exactly?

Exactly but create one near Silicon Valley.

Gates doesn’t need to bribe Harvard.

@Postmodern In the William Deresiewicz article, I linked to, Yale(at least as of 2008) had some complicated formula(X points for debate team, Y points for playing a sport, …) that assigned a numerical ranking to each student, sorted into four groups, and didn’t take the 3s or 4s except in unusual circumstances. I’ld like to see that or whatever they replaced it with made public. And as discussed ad nauseam in this thread, most students entering HYP, unlike perhaps Caltech/MIT, aren’t “cockeyed geniuses” who got published in a peer reviewed journal, received a patent in high school, or won some prestigious national science competition.

Guess what- HS’s which have naviance are already halfway to transparency. The issue isn’t the lack of data or transparency- the issue is that parents and kids don’t want to believe it.

There was a kid from my kid’s HS who wanted to go to Brandeis. That was the dream school. The GC (very experienced, wise, well respected) put together all the numbers showing that since the HS started tracking, not a single kid with this kid’s profile was admitted to Brandeis. GPA too low. Scores too low. Rigor not there. Likeable kid- but not getting in.

Parents were ballistic. GC crushing their kid’s dream, how dare she.

Well fast forward. Kid did not get into Brandeis (like the data showed he would not). Parents are probably still miffed that had the HS been more “supportive” their dream could have come true.

you can’t make this stuff up. And this is Brandeis, not Harvard, not Cal Tech. If your kid is applying to a college where plenty of kids have been both accepted AND rejected from your own HS, it ain’t rocket science to decide if it’s a waste of an application or at least a plausible shot. But believe me- people don’t want to look reality in the eye when their little darling is “just as special” as the next snowflake.

We all love our kids. But sometimes you need a reality check.

You don’t have to do “extraordinary” things, win national awards, go to fancy camp,etc. That’s the irony. You do have to think, which manifests in various ways. Or not, no matter how your hs loved you.

And Deresiewicz is widely critiqued, even scorned. Read up on him.

I don’t see how kids who go on half baked assumptions now will suddenly acquire savvy about realistic prospects.

Anyone seriously looking for the “private” college game to be “fair” is just looking to be disillusioned.

No two applicants can even agree on “fair.” The kid with the perfect SAT thinks that should be the decider. The kid with the 40 hrs. a week of low-income pro-bono tutoring thinks everyone should understand they’d be a 4.0 instead of a 3.8 if they’d volunteered less and studied more.

Any one of these <20% schools (and more) could admit an exciting, exceptional class 2 - 10x over. I know a lot of legacy kids admitted at Penn over the years, and I know more who have been denied. The legacy kids admitted were all in the “can admit” pile. Legacy was the “hook.” (Also, those Penn numbers, for example are likely a bit skewed because some legacy kids who are not strong candidates will have been discouraged from applying. One thing to know about schools like Penn is many will have a convo with alum’s kids and, while they will never say “yay” or “nay” without seeing the application, they are likely to “suggest” a smaller school would be a better use of the EA/ED or a less competitive school might be more in line with the student’s goals or…" A school like Penn will never block a kid from applying, obviously, but they also want to manage legacy expectations without scaring off good candidates.)

OK thanks, that’s a reasonable answer. Don’t you think if they did, then it would just be “gamed” and they’d have to pick a new formula? Also, isn’t the formula just for guidance, and it is still an instinctive decision?

Agreed, but it is the way surefire to increase your chances, right?

Maybe the best approach is the WarGames method: “The only way to win is not to play”. Not meaning don’t apply, but don’t live a life trying to be what maybe someone else wants? (I admit this is a philosophical and impractical point, sorry).

Post- I don’t think it’s impractical at all.

Figure out what it is about the super selective school that resonates (apart from the brand and prestige) and find it a notch downward, where the schools are happy to admit you without the hoop jumping and the gaming.

That might mean Dartmouth, Middlebury, Hobart, U Vermont as your list instead of Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale and Columbia. Or Brown, Bard, Hampshire, Muhlenberg (especially for an arty kid) instead of Brown, Cornell, Harvard and Penn.

Live your own life- and if it means Reed or Rice or Lawrence… then know what it is you are looking for.

Adcoms know high school kids almost never do original research, maybe only come on a team for some hours/week, in a very junior capacity. Getting their name on a pub is often closer to a courtesy. It doesn’t mean they stand with the senior researchers or grad students. It does mean they got their butts out there, experienced the setting.

Note that Deresiewicz’s “insider look” comes from one day in spring, 2008, he admits he picked up some elements “on the fly.” Of course there is coding- eg, you can easily imagine a legacy whose parent(s) attended could be an L1, while grandparent could be L2.

But “Ed level 1”: parents have an educational level no higher than high school," doesn’t necessarily mean, “indicating a genuine hardship case.” Plenty of non-college grads are not “hardship” or even low SES.

The man has an axe to grind.

If a Yale wants a certain sort of activation, a level of thinking, more than “in the box,” why not go for it? Why apply blind?

This thread is pretty played out, but I’ll burden it with a few more anecdotes of the sort that everyone always reminds me aren’t data, but which help explain my worldview.

First: Somewhere upthread someone asked for examples of deserving poor kids whose careers and lives were enriched by association with undeserving privileged kids at Harvard. I couldn’t think of a concrete example, and I still can’t, but yesterday’s newspaper suggested an intriguing possibility. Ed Lampert wasn’t exactly working class – his father was a lawyer in NYC – but his father died young and the family was clearly in straitened financial circumstances. Notwithstanding working throughout high school to help support his family, he was a good student and a good athlete, and he went to college at Yale in the early 80s, almost certainly on scholarship. His roommate there was Steven Mnuchin, the son of a Goldman Sachs senior partner. Sure enough, on graduation Lampert wound up as an intern at Goldman Sachs, which he left after a few years to found the private equity firm that made him a billionaire. (Steve Mnuchin, of course, also started at Goldman Sachs, but stayed a couple of decades before striking out on his own, and is now about to become Secretary of the Treasury.) It’s highly unlikely that his relationship with Mnuchin was necessary to Lampert’s success – among other things, he was a non-legacy member of Skull & Bones, which indicates he had a lot on the ball – but the coincidence is pretty striking.

I’m not suggesting, by the way, that Mnuchin’s father bought his way into Yale. He seems to have been a super-smart rich kid from the get-go

Second: I realized I had a relationship with a possible developmental admit that I hadn’t drawn on here. Unfortunately, it’s really hard to give any details without making it easy to figure out whom I am talking about. This was in grad school, not college. He did not go to any of his family’s colleges; he went to a nonselective hippie-ish LAC, although his style wasn’t the least bit counterculture. He was very modest and unassuming. I worked with him pretty closely for a year, and he was very hardworking and smart in a solid, methodical way. He wasn’t at the top of his class, but he was nowhere near the bottom. He had universal respect from a group that included some future very high flyers. You had to know him pretty well to know how privileged he was, and even though I knew that, it was only in thinking about this post that I realized that he was related to various buildings at that university. It’s no big surprise that he wound up as a big deal – running the family business, a huge civic and charitable presence in his community, a true mover and shaker. His personal qualities would have ensured a good level of success had he started with nothing. But if he had started with nothing, it’s unlikely he would ever have had the opportunity to run a huge, far-flung business empire (or that he would even have aspired to do that).

My point here: If you were a university president, you would absolutely want someone like that associated with your university. Everyone you admit – and lots of people you don’t admit – has the intelligence and personal qualities to be successful. But very few of the people you admit are ever going to have the opportunity to be in a position of great power and influence, and in most cases a certain amount of luck enters into that. With this person, it was a virtual certainty that he would be in a position to have a lot of impact on the world. If you believe in your university’s educational mission, don’t you want to educate that person? Don’t you want to cultivate his long-term support for what you do? Of course you do.

Third: Based on my limited exposure to people who might have the wherewithal to buy their children’s way into an elite university, I would say that few if any of them think their children need any kind of elite credential to succeed. Those people are very proud of themselves, and consider their names plenty credential enough. Lots share the values of @LadyMeowMeow and @QuantMech , believe their kids need to feel they have made it on their own, and wouldn’t dream of putting a finger in the scales. Lots wouldn’t want to put their kids in a situation where the kid would not feel successful. Most are really happy with their own educations, and if they have specific educational ambitions for their kids it’s to have the kids go to their college (often a state flagship or an LAC). Some have trouble believing their kids could be as smart or capable as they, and even go so far as blocking their kids from attending their elite alma maters. It’s a tiny percentage who are so obsessed with “trading up,” or who so desperately want their children to go to their alma mater and no other college, that they would try to buy a child in to an elite university.

So what limits this issue and makes it not such a big deal is not just that colleges don’t do it with many kids; it’s that colleges don’t get asked to do it with many kids.

Perhaps as a solution to appease the ideologues and the apologists is for Harvard and other elites to have a silent anonymous auction for a specific number of slots with all proceeds going to fund the education of all other admits. Hold it in the Spring after junior fails to get into a sufficiently elite school in order to raise the bids. Everyone wins!