How would you respond to this statement about college admissions

Parents Forum
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<p>shrinkrap: i feel you! i’ve read parts of this thread and my eyes glazed over too. the mindsets of some of these people are tiresome and revolting at the same time. as the black mother of a black son, i couldn’t care less what these anonymous bigots on a public board think, but what about the young people who might be reading some of this hatred and garbage? not to mention the stupidity some of these ‘URMs’ may have to deal with once they’re on these campuses (thanks to ignorant parents like the woman northstar mentioned in the beginning). that kind of venom trickles down, and NONE of these children deserve it. the black and brown kids don’t deserve it, and neither do the offspring of the bigoted parents.</p>

<p>so please…i hope that any teens reading this thread and are part of the group being ‘discussed’… know that this is a small group of people venting here. do not take any of this ***** to heart!</p>

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<p>Good point, Pizzagirl. To the extent elite colleges and universities recruit athletes and give them preferential treatment in admissions, it probably represents de facto affirmative action for upper-middle class white kids, and especially those from prep school backgrounds.</p>

<p>Here’s a list of Harvard’s men’s varsity sports: baseball, basketball, heavyweight crew, lightweight crew, cross country, fencing, football, golf, ice hockey, lacrosse, sailing, skiing, soccer, squash, swimming & diving, tennis, track & field, volleyball, water polo, wrestling.</p>

<p>And women’s varsity sports: basketball, heavyweight crew, lightweight crew, cross country, fencing, field hockey, golf, ice hockey, lacrosse, sailing, skiing, soccer, softball, squash, swimming & diving, tennis, track & field, volleyball, water polo. </p>

<p>Basketball, football, and track & field probably bring in a fair number of African-American athletes. Not sure about cross country. Baseball used to be popular among African-Americans but is now much less so. Globally, soccer is the people’s sport played by every race and social class; but in the U.S. it’s still primarily a game played by middle class white kids. And crew, fencing, field hockey, golf, lacrosse, sailing, skiing, squash, tennis, and water polo? You’re not going to find these things at inner city schools or in the poor rural South. In fact, you could hardly design a list of sports that are more the near-exclusive property of upper-middle and upper class prep-school privilege, demographically tied as it is to race in our society. (Ice hockey is a partial exception; here in Minnesota and some other northern climes it’s played by a lot of tough working-class white kids, but in some parts of the Northeast it’s more closely associated with prep school competition).</p>

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<p>We hired a counselor to help our son with his list of schools to apply to, specifically in terms of likely merit aid.</p>

<p>She recommended two top LACs that were “struggling” with gender balance and another one that is known for being conservative but is looking for a more diverse student body (my son is gay.)</p>

<p>He did not apply to any of those colleges but she was dead on with the places he did apply to and the merit money they offered.</p>

<p>calimami, Well said.</p>

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<p>Yes. Exactly. And also families that can afford the equipment, private coaches / lessons, etc. for many of these sports. And who have the luxury of letting their student play these sports instead of working at the local store to help pay the electric bill or watch younger siblings while a parent works. It’s such a scam on so many levels, IMO … the inner-city kids who get recruited to the big sports schools and everyone overlooks the fact that they can’t add 2+2, AND the giving of scholarships to kids of affluent families to reward them for having spent their time playing water polo and lacrosse.</p>

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<p>I think it is smart strategy to look at the male/female ratio of schools when making up a list of where the merit money might be most forthcoming. Geographic diversity, anything that makes your child attractive to a college can help in getting a little more money, in my opinion. Going against the grain, seems to me to reap awards in terms of merit money and admissions.</p>

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<p>"but what about the young people who might be reading some of this hatred and garbage? "</p>

<p>Meh…if this is the worst they have to deal with, I think they are in pretty good shape.</p>

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<p>“I think it is smart strategy to look at the male/female ratio of schools when making up a list of where the merit money might be most forthcoming. Geographic diversity, anything that makes your child attractive to a college can help in getting a little more money, in my opinion. Going against the grain, seems to me to reap awards in terms of merit money and admissions.”</p>

<p>This is very true. Males have an advantage at colleges that were originally women’s college, and at most LACs.</p>

<p>Southerners have an advantage if they are willing to go to the Midwest or Pacific NW.</p>

<p>Northeasterners have an advantage if they’re willing to go to the Midwest and Deep South, especially if they’re going to the more out of the way places where students from the big northeastern cities aren’t likely to go. </p>

<p>Women are at an advantage if they’re planning to major in engineering or math.</p>

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<p>This does not change a thing to what I wrote, which was “I believe that it is a gross misrepresentation to pretend that the pool of scholarship available to LAC applicants is skewed towards the male gender…” </p>

<p>No amount of anecdotes can replace facts that easily bely the speculations and … fabrications. The fact that one student --male of female-- is admitted or received merit aid does not confirm in any way or shape that schools are “struggling” to maintain gender balance, especially when they routinely turn down 3 if not 4 out of every applicant. And it does not start to explain the assertion that the schools are forced to accept lower qualified males to address the so called struggle. </p>

<p>It is has become blatantly obvious that the lack of plausible answer simply confirms that neither Northstarmom nor you have a shred of statistical evidence to back up your posts that relate to the above issues.</p>

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<p>shrink: ha! maybe so. but kids reading this website (something my son has zero interest in doing) probably are the ones who would be crushed to read some of this nonsense. </p>

<p>but yeah, the prison industrial complex is a whole nother conversation. very related to income inequality that brooklynborn touched on. our national taboo topics.</p>

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<p>Is it really very true at … most LACs? Any examples?</p>

<p>Why would we take your word for it?</p>

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<p>xiggi, do you have acceptance rates for men and women at the formerly all-female schools such as Vassar? I’ve never seen such numbers one way or the other, just heard the anecdotes.</p>

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<p>Vassar</p>

<p>[College</a> Navigator - Vassar College](<a href=“College Navigator - Search Results”>College Navigator - Vassar College)</p>

<p>Number of applicants total 7,577 male 2,285 female 5,292
Percent admitted total 25% male 35% female 20%
Percent admitted who enrolled total 35% male 33% female 37%</p>

<p>Back to lurking…</p>

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<p>Depends how far back you want to go! </p>

<p>Entering Fall 2009</p>

<p>C1 Total first-time, first-year (freshman) men who applied 2,285
C1 Total first-time, first-year (freshman) women who applied 5,292
C1 Total first-time, first-year (freshman) men who were admitted 803
C1 Total first-time, first-year (freshman) women who were admitted 1,070
C1 Total full-time, first-time, first-year (freshman) men who enrolled 266
C1 Total full-time, first-time, first-year (freshman) women who enrolled 394 </p>

<p>Entering Fall 2008</p>

<p>C1 Total first-time, first-year (freshman) men who applied 2257
C1 Total first-time, first-year (freshman) women who applied 5104
C1 Total first-time, first-year (freshman) men who were admitted 768
C1 Total first-time, first-year (freshman) women who were admitted 1071
C1 Total full-time, first-time, first-year (freshman) men who enrolled 274
C1 Total full-time, first-time, first-year (freshman) women who enrolled 366</p>

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<p>Thank you, shrinkrap.</p>

<p>xiggi, The numbers you provided confirm that men are accepted at higher rates. Clearly they are trying to boost the number of men at the campus. Merit aid is used for this very purpose.</p>

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<p>Does Vassar give merit aid? I know that one of my kids as a performing arts major applied to a number of schools where the ratio was lopsided such as Ithaca, Goucher, Wheaton college. He did get some merit money, but nothing more than $5K, and these are expensive schools. </p>

<p>Looking at school Naviance material, it was pretty clear that males had a leg up at some schools in admissions, getting accepted with lower stats than girls who were waitlisted or denied. I don’t know about the merit money, however. I didn’t see many schools that generous with merit money with those who were borderline admits and would be the ones who benefited from the males getting some preference. My current college son did get significant merit money, but his stats were also way up there.</p>

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<p>Not at all. You simply offer wrong conclusions and more idle speculation!</p>

<p>Do you believe there is a WHISPER of a chance that I might not have known those numbers when I started challenging NSM’s assertions? </p>

<p>Fwiw, I knew VERY WELL that males have a higher admission rates at many LACs. But, again, that was NOT the issue I raised. The issue was and still is about stating with authority that LACs are STRUGGLING to maintain the gender balance and HAVE to admit lower qualified students to maintain such balance. A different subject, isn’it!</p>

<p>Relying on basic admission rates and not considering the historical gender differences in yield is overly simplistic. Do you really believe that a school such as Swarthmore is struggling to accept males when the entering class has 190 men and 204 women? Do you think they struggle when they accept 455 out of 2210 males? Or when they accept 514 out of 3365 females? </p>

<p>Want more enrollment numbers for last Fall? 252 versus 294 at Williams. 237 versus 230 at Amherst. 290 versus 314 at Midd. 237 versus 259 at Davidson.</p>

<p>A struggle indeed!</p>

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<p>cptofthehouse, Merit money at private schools is used to shape the class, including gender. Women have an advantadge at some schools, men at others. My concern is that the top LACs are turning down women at higher rates than men and that the precious little merit money available is going to men in higher rates. Of course, they haved every right to do that but the level of denial about it is disturbing to me.</p>

<p>Here is an older article and then a follow up from a woman in admissions at a LAC,</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/opinion/23britz.html?_r=2[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/23/opinion/23britz.html?_r=2&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>[A</a> Personal Statement from Jennifer Delahunty Britz - News Room - Kenyon College](<a href=“http://www.kenyon.edu/x31612.xml]A”>http://www.kenyon.edu/x31612.xml)</p>

<p>The U.S. Commission on Civil Rights is investigating the issue, which seems a bit odd to me as private colleges are allowed to factor gender into admissions. However, it will be interesting to see what they find.</p>

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<p>but where did anyone say that the males that were admitted were less qualified…?</p>

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<p>Just looking at the % of males accepted and the % of females accepted is not going to tell the whole story. Looking at those figures, along with some Naviance numbers which would show you the stats of those males and females being accepted and not, is more telling. Though I think the evidence is clear that at those schools that are approaching or at a 40/60 male/female ratio does make it favorable for male applicants, I have not seen evidence of them getting any sizeable merit money. Just admissions. THe males I’ve known who have gotten large merit awards have had the stats to get them. Whether they got more than equivalent females, I don’t know, as I have not seen any breakdown of this information. I can tell you that the only sizable awards I have personally seen in this family, despite some great ECs, is for high SAT scores.</p>

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<p>When the top LACs are admitting men at a substantially higher rate than women, they are saying that they are struggling with the gender balance. </p>

<p>Why are men being accepted at a higher rate then women if it’s not an effort to maintain an acceptable gender balance? Do you believe that the male applicants are just that much more qualified than the female applicants?</p>