@blossom, yes, but the article does not address whether the ACT has the same “IQ-divining” qualities that the SAT has. I’m wondering the same thing. After all, they are fairly different tests.
That article does not mention the SAT or ACT either. It refers to “general cognitive ability” and “conscientiousness”, neither of which the SAT or ACT are (currently) targeted to measure (and even when the SAT was specifically claimed to be an “aptitude” test, was a large English vocabulary and knowledge of high school algebra and geometry really the best way to test “general cognitive ability”?).
Many potential hires do not have SAT or ACT scores. These include those who did high school and/or undergraduate study outside of the US, many of those who started undergraduate study at community colleges and then transferred to universities which do not require SAT or ACT scores for junior-level transfers, and many of those who started undergraduate study at four year schools that do not require SAT or ACT scores for those with otherwise sufficient academic credentials.
Times may be different now, but -
Literature major, here, who NEVER worked in a coffee shop after graduating. I always found white-collar jobs, and decent-paying ones. I saved up enough to get a Master’s degree five years later. AND I had loans from undergrad, which I also paid off in five years… (granted, college was cheaper)
And - my parents, at the time, were what is often called “the working poor”. Low-paying factory jobs, neither graduated from high school, no savings (my Dad’s factory shut down while I was in high school and he was unemployed for two years, and we had to use all of their savings to live on.)
Times may be a little different now, but I still believe employers want to hire young people who are educated, who can communicate effectively, and think critically. That’s what those “basketweaving” majors teach you.
Of course, a generation ago, people with any bachelor’s degree were less common among the general population than today, so the relative difficulty of finding a “good” job with a bachelor’s degree was probably lower then than now.
True.^
The SAT (or ACT) is one datapoint and one point only. What it does or does not measure is somewhat besides the point (at least for any company I have worked for). The relevant question is- how good is it, when used with a bunch of other things- to predict performance of a new hire. And to screen out people who- all things being equal- might not be good hires.
And there are lots of companies using it- without a lawsuit claiming that it is discriminatory- as an “easy to gather” piece of information.
I’m not claiming that a 36 ACT is a "better " piece of information than knowing that someone majored in sociology at University of Las Vegas vs. majoring in applied math at UIUC. I get to know ALL that information. And depending on the skills I need and the past performances of thousands of new grads plus new information (nobody had heard of big data 20 years ago, let alone needing to hire people who could do it) a company can create its own hiring methodology.
The accusation which seems to crop up on CC every month is that a kid who majors in something other than nursing, accounting, comp sci, or engineering (with a few others thrown in) is doomed to underemployment. I’ve often challenged these parents- why don’t you actually take the time to learn how real live companies hire people, rather than extrapolate from the two performing arts majors you know from your local Kinko’s or Bed Bath. You would be a better help to your kids by learning how it’s done vs. spouting a lot of half or non-truth’s about why they’ll be unemployed forever if they study X.
Vocational majors are frequently only as good as the sector they are preparing your kid for. So graduating with a degree in real estate is a really bad idea during a real estate downturn. Nobody remembers (I do because I am old) the colleges which slapped together majors in “e-commerce” in 1998 and 1999, only to have their grads become unemployable in 2002 when they graduated (and the tech bust was firmly in motion). DON’T study e-commerce- study comp sci or psychology or economics or operations research or an actual discipline which could prepare you for a job in e-commerce.
But the flavor of the month method assumes that you can predict the future of the labor market and the economy. And if you were any good at that- you’d be sitting on an island somewhere living off your investments instead of poking a look at CC during a boring phone meeting at work…
I just focused for the first time on the fact that we’re talking about income 10 years after enrollment in college, not 10 years after completing college. That makes a huge difference. Most of the grad students will still be in grad school six (or five, or four) years after graduating. The new doctors will still be training. Lots of others will still be in the early phases of careers that just don’t pay much in the early phases.
@ blossom,
BRILLIANT! 1000x likes.
Best education prepares one for … the unknown. Learn how to learn and how to think.
“I’ve often challenged these parents- why don’t you actually take the time to learn how real live companies hire people, rather than extrapolate from the two performing arts majors you know from your local Kinko’s or Bed Bath. You would be a better help to your kids by learning how it’s done vs. spouting a lot of half or non-truth’s about why they’ll be unemployed forever if they study X.”
Well, some people are book-smart but real-world-stupid, blossom.
True that, but note also that according to payscale.com, among holders of a bachelor’s degree only, median mid-career (10 years out) earnings are:
Government $102,000
Economics $98,500
Government & politics $88,200
International & comparative politics $85,600
Philosophy $85,000
Politics $83,100
CHEMISTRY $81,400
I’m not knocking STEM. It’s just that there’s this wildly overblown myth out there, frequently repeated on CC, that if it’s STEM it’s lucrative, and if not you’ll end up as a barista at Starbucks. In fact, it’s mostly the “E” in STEM that pays well, along with computer science in the “T.”
Also note that according to payscale.com, a master’s degree in biology bumps median mid-career salary up only to $82,500—still well behind economics ($113,000), international relations ()$101,000), political science ($91,800), and public policy analysis ($90,000), Interestingly, though, a master’s degree in some humanities fields actually leads to lower mid-career earnings, if payscale.com’s figures are to be believed. One possible explanation is that with a master’s degree, many humanities majors go on to relatively low-paying teaching jobs at community colleges, and/or piece together jobs as adjuncts at 4-year colleges and universities, while those with only a bachelor’s degree adapt their critical reasoning and oral and written communication skills to better-paying job settings in the business, government, and non-profit world. At the Ph.D. level, economists ($134K) and political scientists ($119K) still out-earn biologists ($97,900), according to payscale.com.
Bingo, blossom.
And this: “Learn how to learn and how to think.” But you need to start your kids early on this. And I’d just add, learn to vet your own thoughts, as well as others’.
“You are technically correct, of course. I find it hard to fathom any institution wise enough to use algorithm for the hiring process would leave out the SAT or its equivalent as one of the steps though, since we have known for a long time what the important variables for a good worker are:
http://www.apa.org/research/action/”
If one is a robot perhaps. I’m not looking for a “good worker” as that implies a dutiful order taker. I need people who are creative, flexible, take initiative, problem-solve, ask questions that have never been asked before, work well and collaboratively with others, and in my particular field have a passion for the subject matter. Those characteristics are easily worth “sacrificing” 100 SAT points for. Because I’m an actual human being, that’s what I look for in the interview process. I don’t need their SAT scores to tell me those things; I can assess it live. You have such a robotic aspect to how you think about hiring; it’s clear you’ve never really done anything significant in HR as blossom has.
“If Alice/Bob is trying to get the IB job, will the offer go to the 2400 ( 1600 M/V ) over the 36 ACT?”
Can we just think for a moment here? Don’t you think these people KNOW that certain parts of the country tend to take certain tests? Could you help where you lived when you were a teenager?
Btw, imo, what a high score tells is often that the kid is motivated to get a high score. I can see the value in thinking maybe you’ve got an applicant who does go for the std goals, a glimpse of how the carrot works for that guy or gal.
I just also think there’s more to value than how a kid performed in junior year of hs or so, before some real life opportunities,when Mummy and Daddy were providing the framework. And sometimes, you don’t want a pony for the job or someone who just wants the results.
Math pays well- if the math major is interested in those kinds of jobs. It doesn’t take an advanced degree in math to look at the pay of a mid-tenured HS math teacher vs.a mid-tenured actuary vs. a mid-tenured risk manager at a credit card company and realize that there are some very lucrative math careers out there.
There is a lot of tunnel thinking on CC about professional development post-grad. I often wonder what some of you do for a living in the real world. I’ve got a couple of friends (IRL) who work in the helping professions who have great difficulty understanding careers that don’t have a Master’s degree and certification attached to them (they wonder how I got my job- and have managed to stay in this field for 30 years… "but you didn’t major in Human Resources! " they marvel.)
But the rest of you? I understand that a social worker gets a degree in social work and an occupational therapist studies occupational therapy. But don’t you guys realize that these lock-step educational paths are just one route upwards- and only work if you actually want to work with patients/clients/families?
It’s more popular nationally now, too.
That’s a weakness but I believe the intention is to add later data as it becomes available. Five years from now they can add a 15 year window, etc.
bclintonk - You are presenting misleading information. Here is the full list of majors from payscale. Of the top 23 majors ranked by average income at the 10 year mark, 22 of them STEM are related. Tied for #20 with four other majors is government.
http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/majors-that-pay-you-back/bachelors?page=22
Basically, you are picking the worst STEM majors (due to pre-med oversupply) and comparing them to the best non-STEM majors.
But not everyone can be a STEM major. Not everyone has the skills or the desire. Why on earth would I have ever pushed my kid who lives and breathes politics and government into STEM? Because he might make more money, even though he wouldn’t be happy? God, how superficial and pathetic would that be?
“Basically, you are picking the worst STEM majors (due to pre-med oversupply) and comparing them to the best non-STEM majors.”
How amusing that you define a “better” major as the one that makes more money. Is that also the definition of a better life?
The uninterested STEM major is unlikely to make it all the way through due to lack of interest in the course material, coupled with being in competition with others in the major who are very interested in the course material.
And if he/she makes it through, that first big paying job is unlikely to lead to a soaring career in a field of no interest to that person.
And, turn on the TV - turn on your computer - go to the grocery store - buy a lamp - drive your car - the humanities are EVERYWHERE. In EVERY industry. Human beings are visual and communicative; skills that can capitalize on these basic human needs/desires are very important.