Hundreds of Colleges Provide No Income Boost

Parents Forum
141

Don’t surmise that companies are lacking in adequate tools to measure what they are looking for. There are companies that primarily promote from within, who have very high retention rates of high performing employees, and you will find that those employers are extremely satisfied with the tools they use to assess potential hires.

The SAT is one tool- just one- in a pretty big and robust toolkit. Proprietary testing to assess math skills, critical reasoning, ability to quickly write a grammatical paragraph (our test is timed)-- these all add to the datapoint which is the SAT.

Why do you assume that companies- which spend millions of dollars recruiting and assessing potential employees, don’t know what they are looking for???

142

^^because the world is changing too quickly?

because maybe they need their new employees to identify what problems they need to be looking to solve.

Of course, you are the expert, not me. I am flat out wrong about lots of things. I’m not even sure I understand Canukguy’s point.

143

The world is changing quickly- no question. But I don’t need a team of new hires who have degrees in “Big Data” just because my company is staffing a new function called Big Data. I need the same mix of young people with strong programming and applied math skills (plus the soft skills- ability to teach, ability to communicate, strong intellectual curiousity) that I had last year- we’re just calling it something new. When the SEC changes its reporting regulations for public companies,companies don’t need to frantically alter the hiring criteria for new financial analysts and investor relations professionals- our compliance team can work with smart, literate (both numbers and words) people who take direction and aren’t so arrogant that they think they know everything.

i.e. business as usual. Rapid change means MORE emphasis on intellectual curiosity and emotional intelligence and the ability to write well and synthesize information quickly.

144

Have we veered way off the topic?

I don’t think the average IB candidate is trying to wring the last 5% of value out of their school or is typical of anymore than 0.5% of the college student population, Who grabs that golden ring is much more a function of personal qualities, from family connections and poise to interests (including polo or whatever upper class sport you choose) as well as just an incredible work ethic and well brains.

If I have a starting salary in the $150K range under 30, I can pay off any amount of loans I chose to accumulate.

Similarly, I find the Duke study to be limited in value by the very fact that these are Duke students who have already passed through the 1% college admission hoop, and to be fair, face very small income losses by switching from STEM to liberal arts majors, as a matter of fact Duke carries more weight for an art history major than an engineer or math major. A second tier state school student who switches from engineering to art history may lose 50% of their income.

I think the yurt dwellers of Vermont have never considered IB and hundreds of colleges do not send people to IB or these high end jobs, they turn out perfectly qualified middle of the road people for the middle 50% of jobs.

I think a Big Data grad who can’t program really, really well is bound for companies that say invest in Big Data, not those looking to implement v1 of BD breakthrough software. Similarly, your compliance team may need cream of the crop, but many other companies might just need some people who can implement some compliance protocols.

Reading, writing, 'rithmetic + speaking, programming (light) + people skills -> most jobs
The more selective the job, especially with commensurate high pay, the higher the standards you can put out, and the more you may really just be looking for very core intelligence (multifaceted)

Obviously anyone with the smarts to fill those positions you have could probably major in just about anything you want them too … maybe they would segregate into math, programming, legal buckets … so obviously you just don’t care. They are very trainable and will be whatever you need to be in a year or less.

The ordinary humans who have most jobs need those 4 or 6 or 8 years to get up to speed … and accumulate the more mundane knowledge and at least a familiarity with the new stuff they are likely going to get hired for (the 50 year olds will keep up with the more mundane stuff for another 20 years). Hey, Joe, you are young, have you heard about Big Data? Oh really, you took a class or majored in that at EW State College. That’s great … we have a vendor coming in to show us some Big Data stuff next week, why don’t you join us…

145

No, I never claimed the Duke study’s conclusion focused on SAT scores. You originally brought up the Duke study as evidence of SAT score being a key reason why students switch majors, even though SAT scores were not the focus of their conclusion. My original point was the study you referenced suggests the opposite result as your claim – suggesting that switching behavior primarily relates to other factors besides SAT score, and SAT score was not a key factor. A quote relating to the Duke study focus is:

“With no controls, both blacks and females are significantly more likely than whites and males to choose humanities and social sciences conditional on not choosing humanities and social sciences initially. Adding controls for academic preparation reduces the black coefficient to zero.”

They find that when they add controls for academic preparation the black coefficient goes to zero. The actual coefficient is listed 0.024 (0.064), so not exactly zero, but near insignificant. When they add controls the SAT score coefficient shows the same behavior as the black coefficient dropping from significant to -0.031 (0.027). Yes, the focus of the study was the black coefficient, not the SAT score coefficient; but this does not mean all the other data in the study cannot be understood. One can still see the SAT score coefficient has similar behavior to the black score coefficient, even though the former was not the focus of the study.

What I wrote in my reply was, “every single study I am aware that filters for both a measure of GPA and course rigor came to a similar conclusion. Some more examples are below:” I listed many studies that came to a similar conclusion other that the Bates study. If you don’t like the Duke study that you originally brought up as a reference because SAT related conclusions are not listed explicitly by the authors, then choose one of the many other studies that lists more explicit conclusions, such as every other study that was referenced. If you don’t like the Bates study because you think it is politically motivated, then choose one that you think has less biased motivation. If you have a problem with all of the referenced studies, then there is no shortage of additional ones that come to a similar conclusion. I am not cherry picking studies with unique results. All I am aware of with a control for GPA and course rigor reach similar conclusions.

Actually you claimed that my comments about the data in the Duke study related to political views in post #111. At that point nobody had mentioned the Bates study or any other study you don’t approve of.

146

@alh A holistic thinker here. I am not surprise you are not getting my point because I have many. The over-arching concern of mine is how one can prepare for a job market that is the toughest I have ever seen. (America seems to be doing well now, but here, we are back in recession again. In fact, I feel as though we have never left).

I am interested in elite employers because I want to see what the current “best practice” is. The reasoning is that if someone can get into a Bain or a Google, that person should have little trouble in finding more mundane employment.

What comes out loud and clear is that the elites want people with outstanding analytical, verbal and general cognitive ability. While I can not change the cognitive ability I am given, I can certainly show more conscientiousness in my studies and max out on what I am given. (Murray gives too much weight to ability and Gladwell puts too much faith in effort, imo).

The idea of a Renaissance Man may no longer be possible, but Bock’s idea of being both analytical and creative is eminently achievable. Just pick courses that span the “Great Divide”-math and English, psychology and physics (a sibling of mine did that), philosophy and statistics etc. It will no doubt require more work, but if that would improve my job prospects and give me a better education in the process, I think it is well worth the effort.

All my other points are really subplots to this focus.

@PickOne1 Well said. I would mention that it took my two children 5-7 years to fully hit their stride, consistent with your observation.

@Data10 I think this conversation, and all previous editions, show how difficult it is for a holistic thinker to talk to a deep functional expert. If I did not study subjects requiring analytical thinking, I am not sure we would have anything to say to each other. Time for another truce.

147

The first sentence is a problematic conclusion. The second sentence explains why it’s problematic—the assumption is unwarranted that the skillset that elite employers look for is a superset or what other employers look for, or that it’s the same skillset but at a higher level.

148

Rereading the excerpts by @Data10 made me realize that what we are really talking about in terms of preparation is math and science preparation, I think the selection process for Duke makes it unlikely that there are large numbers of students for any demographic that would not have excellent reading, writing, and oral skills. So by switching they go from under prepared to average prepared.

I could conjecture the same thing is happening with women, due to less math and science in high school, and also to be fair, more liberal arts preparation that will lead to success in those fields.

And, I think that mediocre and below high schools likely do not have teachers that are really capable of teaching college level courses in high school to prepare John and Jane for Physics 1 or Calc 1 (let alone Calc 3). It is very tough to learn real time in college in 12 weeks what you have never seen before. Top tier high schools have dozens of AP offerings and teach even beyond CalcBC.

I also think there is little to lose for a Duke student to switch out of STEM, they are still elite school graduates who are employable in many industries (unlike their peers at 2nd tier state us and below who will not get anywhere with their history or ethnoliguistic degree).

@Canuckguy More than studying the methods by which Ivy League grads are sifted to pick IB candidates, you should take a look at articles on functional interviews and some other recent articles. Interviews today are really tough, even for the really well qualified candidate … since there are many to chose from … The SAT screen is the least of your problems.

149

I agree with dfb that there is no reason to believe what the top consulting firms are screening for are necessarily the same skills for which other companies, and all other employers, are looking. At the beginning of the thread, we talked about maybe Bennington students are self-selecting and the main focus may not be about maximizing income post college, so thinking about what colleges give income boosts may be beside the point for Bennington. Trying to find the one true answer to what employers want seems a similar quest to me. So may variables.

Having written that, I continue to believe intelligent, well-educated people find a way to get by. If their goal isn’t consulting, they may not acquire the particular skills those guys want. They will still have skills.

Recently I was talking with an upcoming graduate, from an elite school, really distressed about the interview process. One summer he painted his parents’ house and did an excellent job. If he doesn’t get a consulting job :wink: he could always paint houses. Pointing out he has a marketable skill seemed to reassure him. An industrious young man I knew in the NE did this to earn money before he went back for an MBA. Ten years later, he has no interest in the MBA. His company does great. I think his college education benefits him. It was a BA in history.

…

Exactly!!

150

in one sentence:

Structuring your education to give Mckinsey, Baine, & BCG what you assume they want seems to me the wrong way to approach education.

151

Different employers often look for different things. Some banking/consulting firms tend to have an especially unique view. For example, in the survey at https://chronicle.com/items/biz/pdf/Employers%20Survey.pdf , over 700 employers describe what skills and other factors they are looking for when hiring new grads. In all industries, relevant experience including internships and relevant employment were reported as the most important factors when evaluating a resume; and college reputation and college grades were reported among the least important factors. In most industries, employers rated attending a “nationally known college university” as having a slightly more positive impact on hiring decisions than attending an “elite college or university”, and “regionally known” universities were not far behind. Employers reported favoring applicants with majors emphasizing skills related to the position, so outside of science and technology industries, employers favored applicants with non-STEM majors over CS/engineering/… majors. Some “elite” consulting and banking companies have a notably different view on hiring.

152

Huh? A frosh college student just needs high school level math up to precalculus to be ready to take calculus 1 in college; s/he does not need any college level math to be ready to take calculus 1 in college. Of course, it is certainly possible that some high schools do not teach high school level math up to precalculus well enough for their students to be truly ready for calculus (as evidenced by the numerous remedial (below calculus) math offerings at many colleges, including some of the most selective ones).

153

Sometimes, we so miss the point that life isn’t all theoretical. You don’t need some one path to succeed. Not everyone needs to be a math wiz or ace their hs tests. Or know their major at 17 (really, when all you’ve experienced is high school?)

And maybe you never took calculus, never do.

154

“am interested in elite employers because I want to see what the current “best practice” is. The reasoning is that if someone can get into a Bain or a Google, that person should have little trouble in finding more mundane employment.”

There are several flaws in your argument.

  1. Bain and Google aren’t “elite employers” across the board - they are desirable in certain fields, but if someone isn’t interested in that field, their “eliteness” is of no relevance. The student who wants to work in public relations might consider Edelman far more desirable. The student who wants to work in consumer packaged goods might consider Procter & Gamble far more desirable. And so forth. You’re somehow assuming that there is one rank order of employers, as though that list would be the same for everybody, which is very strange.

  2. You’re assuming that Bain / Google / et al are somehow better in recruiting the students that fit their own needs, than Edelman and P&G are in recruiting the students that fit their own needs. Why would you assume that the latter are any less able to identify the students that fit their needs? Do you not think that they, too, have extensive HR staffs who know what to look for?

  3. Why would you assume that someone who could get into Bain or Google would have “little trouble” finding other employment? (I’ll ignore your use of the word mundane, which is nonsensical.) Isn’t it evident that someone who might be a fabulous candidate for an entry-level position at Bain might be a terrible candidate for an entry-level position at Edelman?

Different industries and fields call for different skills. I don’t know why you’ve elevated some companies above others and assumed their desirability and characteristics are common across all. The successful entry level Bain candidate and the successful entry level Edelman candidate aren’t “better” or “worse” than one another - and they aren’t interchangeable either - neither could do the other’s job.

155

"What comes out loud and clear is that the elites want people with outstanding analytical, verbal and general cognitive ability. "

Well, who doesn’t want people with great analytical, verbal and cognitive ability? The relative weight on those things, however, may be different in different positions. I need someone with a different set of skills to run mathematical algorithms at Bain than I do to write a press release for Edelman. So why would I think that how Bain runs its show is extrapolatable to anything?

156

Parents and students don’t understand the skills required in different professional fields.

I’ve got friends who can’t understand the pipeline between Harvard and Burbank, i.e. why so many comedy writers and successful sitcom producers come from ivy league universities, when their own little Joey’s and Susie’s are trying to break into the TV business (unsuccessfully) with degrees in mass media from directional state U. They say, “but Harvard doesn’t even HAVE a journalism major!” (as if that’s relevant).

You’ve got to help your kid figure out the “what counts” factors for the fields the kid is interested in. Commercial photography, becoming a playwright, airline pilot for a national carrier- each field tends to have a few distinct points of entry and requisite skills and experiences required to join.

If your kid wants to trade commodities for the Koch brothers, that’s a different set of skills than becoming a mortgage broker, or selling municipal bonds for large infrastructure projects even if these are all called Finance. No 17 year old kid needs to understand the differences- or even care. But it’s a mistake to assume that “all colleges are the same”- wrong. “Any degree can get you where you need to go”- wrong. “A kid who is smart and has initiative can pretty much “workaround” whatever deficits might be in his/her resume”- often true. “A kid who does not have a lot of initiative is going to have a hard time launching without the support of a truly professional career services team at college”- frequently true.

If your kid is prepared to be flexible on geography and compensation, likes to work really, really hard, and can demonstrate an ability to learn new things very quickly with both concepts and numbers, then your kid will likely do fine in getting that first career track job out of college. If any of those elements are not there- it becomes progressively harder. And if your kid NEEDS to be in Seattle or Chicago, and NEEDS 60K to start (plus benefits) AND cannot demonstrate how his/her college education taught him/her to learn, not just to memorize content- then you may have some trouble.

157

The job hiring environment is certainly more complex and competitive than it was 30 or 40 years ago. I think back then the key ingredient for selecting a graduate of an elite college was that the employers believed these kids had the potential to learn the job quickly, efficiently and to add value much faster with less burden on other employees to teach them the ropes. That is why the ‘elite consulting or banking firms’ would routinely hire liberal arts majors regardless of their “qualifications” A classics major with a focus on Livy could get a job at Bain or at Salomon Brothers trading bonds just because everyone assumed they could learn the job. Fast forward to today…

I think its much more difficult for the elite graduate with a liberal arts degree to similarly get a job at a Bain or similar investment bank. Certainly today it requires more luck or a family connection while back then it didn’t. This is reflective in many more top graduates from the elite schools majoring in STEM or in economics or other “pre-banking or pre-technology fields’ Around the world college graduates are going to college to learn job related skills that are increasingly targeted and specific… 'network engineering, prenatal nursing… etc…” The ‘elite schools’ still however turn out many liberal arts graduates… its maybe the last bastion in the USA with a sizeable percentage of graduates in the humanities. Apart from a few schools (wharton, dartmouth…) the majority of the 'elite ivies and nescac and other top tier" do not offer ‘career majors’ like business administration or communications, not even education… again these schools are still in the ‘holistic education business’ Does that mean their graduates may earn less sometimes? I guess so. But are they taking very smart kids and challenging them academically? Definitely. Is that worth $250k over 4 years? Well… it depends. Is life nothing more than a numbers game of net present value of your life discounted back to college costs? I don’t think so. Its about education for education’s sake. Knowledge is a value that defies quantification by dollars and cents. If you are a parent who can fathom this then you know that paying for college to give your kid a lifelong love of learning is worth immeasurably more than what he/she is going to get from going to college just to earn a salary.

158

Totally agree with Pizzagirl on this. Google hires about 4,000 people per year. No doubt for some of them–computer engineers and software developers—Google can be considered an “elite employer.” But an awful lot of those people are hired to sell advertising. No offense to people who sell advertising for a living, but that doesn’t strike me as a particularly “elite” occupation. If you’re into selling advertising, Google may be a pretty cool place to do it–especially if you’re the type of person Google goes out of its way to hire, i.e., fun-loving, quirky, creative, an outside-the-box, color outside-the-lines thinker, good at problem-solving and open to new challenges but not too deeply attached to any specialized expertise… But while those attributes might help you land a job at Google, they may be exactly what makes you a poor fit, and unlikely to get hired, in a more buttoned-down work environment, even as part of an advertising sales force. And your ability to get hired at Google will do you absolutely no good at a business that is looking for, e.g., mechanical engineers to help it figure out how to legitimately meet emissions standards on its diesel engines, or chemical engineers to help it develop new synthetic fibers. You know, “mundane” employment requiring any kind of specialized skills and knowledge.

159

Regelus, most banks and consulting firms today have much more rigorous assessment processes in place than they did in the 1970’s. Having “connections” doesn’t get you as far today as it did back then, sorry to tell you. I have someone who works for me who pretty much specializes in “courtesy interviewing”- i.e. interviewing the kid of someone well connected who doesn’t have the intellectual chops to get through the process but who we need to reject very gently. But reject we do. I’d lose my job if I hired someone’s squash partner’s kid who didn’t have what it takes to be successful at our company. And I’m not losing my job over that.

I still hire Classics majors (as a Classics major myself). That hasn’t changed. What has changed is that a Classics major needs to have also taken a statistics class or two, and done well in it. Or the Micro/Macro sequence in a rigorous econ department. Or a poli sci class which was heavy on quantitative analysis.

The mistake that many kids make is to assume that when recruiters ask for their transcript, they won’t read it. Not true. Any employer who wants a transcript IS going to read it. And a kid who attends a “core school” (i.e. a college where a company has hired boatloads of people over the last decade) ought to know that recruiters know the difference between taking a “buyer behavior” class which is heavy on concepts and light on analysis, vs. a behavioral economics class which is heavy on data. Even though both “count” for credit and both cover “buyer behavior”. I know an easy A when I see one. Kids who pad their transcripts with the easiest version of every class don’t get a free ride.

160

The fetishizing of Bain / McKinsey / Google etc is as silly as the fetishizing of HYPSM.