yeah to clarify the part about the work requirement of Honors Analysis, from what ive heard as a first year here, it’ll take about 30 hours per week of work (or more) to take honors analysis. so if you’re not prepared to spend dozens of hours per week on math, then don’t take the class. Also from what I’ve heard you have to pretty much get a perfect score on the placement exam to get in, so good luck with that
This honestly all feels a bit antagonistic at this point
The thing is, from what upperclassmen constantly tell us first years, classes with Honors tacked on are primarily for people who are deeply interested in the subject. For example, Honors General Chemistry is not for people who are just trying to finish their physical sciences requirement; it’s more for anyone who wants to examine chemistry more carefully and who demonstrate an actual interest in the subject. Likewise, I think what people here are trying to say is that Honors Analysis is for people who are truly interested in learning more and going more in-depth than Regular Analysis.
tl;dr - don’t take the class just because it says honors and you think it’d look cool, take the class because you want to learn more (even if it hurts GPA or whatever)
I hope I haven’t come off as someone chasing prestige. I am genuinely interested in taking where, as you said, I will learn the most.
I still have to even get in first.
tl;dr: uh, I think you’re stressing about this whole Honors Analysis thing too much.
l;r: I am certainly not trying to be antagonistic, though I do apologize if it came off that way. (To be fair, you have been pretttty defensive.) I also obviously cannot speak to any expectations your dad may have, but I can say that you are simply expressing the identical but very understandable expectation/desire that many high school high achievers in math have had before they arrive at UChicago, “I’ve always been great at math, and what’s more, I like it a lot. I’ve done several years of Calculus before, they have always been advanced courses. I would like to take Honors Analysis my first year. The course may be hard, but I want to be challenged, and ‘Honors Calculus’ sounds like something that I have already taken.”
(I personally kind of blame the math department for not simply coming up with a different, more advanced-sounding name for Honors Calculus. But they’re hilarious like that: what comes after Honors Calculus and Honors Analysis is Honors Basic Algebra.)
Now, I have no clue what and/or how well you have done in high school math/any math extracurriculars but I’m gonna assume that you’ve done great (and if so, good work). I can certainly say that I was in a similar boat. I was very interested in Honors Analysis, but I placed into and struggled miggggghtily… with Honors Calculus, which was a very valuable lesson that UChicago math courses are at an entirely different level than any class you have likely taken before. I have no chip on my shoulder about it either: when I say a handful, I really do mean somewhere between about 10-20 first years place into Honors Analysis, one or two of whom I knew personally, and they still had to put in a great deal of time.
But all that aside, as someone pointed out, if you are math major, or simply want to continue what has always been an advanced tract in math, it is far better to aspire to take and succeed in Honors Calculus your first year and do well in that than it is to worry about (or view it as an ego blow to not place into) Honors Analysis, not in the very least because first year is when you will have devote plenty of time to reading-heavy core courses as well.
So as far as the placement test goes, my personal advice----and of course, you are free to do whatever----is to devote your time to brushing up on material you have already learned in classroom settings, formal competitions, and whatnot, as opposed to trying to teach yourself anything new on your own. For one, as HydeSnark said, even people who have studied Spivak and Apostol all summer unsurprisingly don’t place into 207, and I actually feel kind of bad for them. It is far important to demonstrate what you have already learned and are an expert in through the end of your senior year of high school, and trust that the placement test will point you in the right direction.
Honors Calc is honestly the best math class I have ever taken. It convinced me to become a math major. There really is no reason to rush into Honors Analysis.
Thanks for the big reply! Yeah, I’ve come off as a bit defensive, but I’m really not mad or anything. It’s just discouraging to see pretty much anyone who talks about HA on this forum to be, well, discouraged from taking it. That’s all.
But I understand what you mean. Honors Analysis is not a prestige thing, or something to be taken lightly. And yeah, I will trust my placement test, wherever it takes me. I’m not intending to “cram” for it (if you can call starting to learn proof-based math 10 months before “cramming”). I genuinely have nothing better to do right now, and I find it really fun. So I’m doing it. The better prep for placing/succeeding into Honors Analysis is just a side benefit. That’s my mentality about it right now.
As for my dad, I don’t think he would be “disappointed” if I don’t get into HA. I think he would just be sort of surprised. He seems very confident about it, because he placed in with no proof-based math experience at all besides learning some calc proofs from his textbook. When he was senior in high school, there was no other math course for him to take, so the Calc teacher let him teach the class, literally. Like he lectured everyday. He said deriving and explaining Calc to his class probably helped him learn proof logic. And he said he got an A, for what it’s worth. I mean, I don’t feel a ton of pressure to do what he did, but if I could, I think it’d be really great.
I should add, I understand why the discouragement is happening. Most people probably aren’t fit to take the class. As freshman, anyway. I might not be. It goes back to what you said about trusting the placement and not cramming things you don’t really know just for the test. If you do really know, which I’m trying to do (really know this stuff), then it should be alright. I think.
Part of it also is this: Lots --not all, but lots – of the high school students who think seriously of applying to a place like the University of Chicago are both accustomed to challenging themselves academically all the time, and also to being the smartest person (or one of the smartest people) in any classroom in which they find themselves. And on top of that, they are in the middle of college application frenzy, and they are constantly being told, “You have to stand out! You have to be the top candidate! You have to be great at everything and absolute best at one or more things!”
Someone like that who’s in high school often more or less assumes college will be the same way. He hears about some super-elite math class and thinks, “Math is one of the things I’m best at. If I’m not in that class, I won’t be best at math anymore. I’ve got to get into that class!”
What that kid doesn’t realize is that when you get to a college like the University of Chicago, trying to be best and to stand out like in high school will drive you crazy because there’s too much talent around. What’s more, any class designed for the top tier of students at Chicago – e.g., Honors Calculus – is going to be a class with serious intellectual challenge, with a lot of very bright people in the room taking it, none of them bored or coasting. And you don’t have to be #1 in your class to get the goodies at the next level, either. In the University of Chicago math department, going with the program – starting at the beginning, then the middle, etc. – and being successful at it will mean not only that you have a very deep understanding of lots of math and have challenged yourself a lot, but also that you have a boatload of great opportunities. Even if it turns out you are not the Math Genius of the World. And if you are the Math Genius of the World . . . there will still be plenty for you to do and to learn there, and people to hang out with who understand your greatness and its limitations, which will probably be a new experience for you.
ITA with JHS’s analysis of where the HS mindset comes from. And would add “you must take the most rigorous courseload available in your field of study in order to be competitive for admission to the best schools” to the list of things HS students are being told – by colleges themselves (in this case).
Success in college follows a different logic. As does grad school admissions (which also varies depending on field).
Good post, JHS. Looking forward to Friday’s decisions!
tl;dr: Still think you shouldn’t be worrying about Honors Analysis, but we’ve been piling on a bit unfairly, and you deserve some actual practical advice about how to get into this course, since you seem very set on trying to do so.
l;r: Given all that you have said, I am still slightly concerned that you are interested in Honors Analysis for the wrong reasons. I also assure you that at UChicago (or any top college) and past it–and this is the opposite of how high school works, which is why I understand your mindset–it benefits you far more to get great grades than it does to take the most world-endingly challenging syllabus and get in over your head and/or get Bs. Outside of UChicago, the circle of people who understand what a 4.0 GPA means is wide, whereas the circle of people who know or care that Honors Analysis is an elite course is extraordinarily narrow — for both your academic and professional career to come, I would take an A in Honors Calculus over a B/B+ in Honors Analysis any day.
And as for having nothing better to do the next 10 months, I do hope that you’ve checked off a lottttt of other boxes first. (Finished and polished your essays for other colleges, staying active in your ECs, etc. etc.)
ALL THAT SAID, I think we have all been slightly unfairly and somewhat shortsightedly piling on here. You’ve expressed enough of an interest in this course, and the intention to devote some time to placing into it, that I think you deserve some actual practical advice about the best way to do so. All the advice you have been getting here–including from me–has been very sound and well-informed (if, yes, a little bit discouraging) but it is admittedly not authoritative. And with all due respect to your dad, I think his perspective, while valuable, is also very dated.
I also don’t think you’re wrong: the amount of time you have between now and the placement test does strike me as enough time to study whatever needs to be studied to give yourself a decent chance of placing into Honors Analysis. (Or at the very least, giving you a considerable head start at Honors Calc if you place into that).
So if I were you, here is what I would highly advise doing, in order of steps:
- Get into UChicago (first). This might sound obvious, but what comes next really is best done once you're an accepted student.
- Email John Boller, the Math Department's departmental counselor. He has taught Honors Analysis, but even if he hadn't, he would be the appropriate one to address this to anyway.
- Tell him that you are interested in Honors Analysis, completely understand that it is an elite course and that it must be placed into, and that would like his guidance on the correct material to focus on in the months ahead in order to best position yourself to succeed, both in the placement test and in the course itself. I guess you can mention that you have been told what the textbook for Honors Calculus/Analysis is, and that you intend to familiarize yourself with it anyway. You can also ask if he would advise taking a class in the months ahead as better preparation and if so, what the course should be. (As independent, ungraded study is no substitute for an actual academic setting that covers the same material --- after all, Honors Analysis is, at the end of the day, a graded class.)
- Say "Thank you for the guidance" (etc etc) to whatever he responds with, and then do it. At the very least, you will have shown the kind of respectful initiative that will benefit you in the long run, no matter what happens.
- For the love of god, make sure you do some other stuff with your senior year than study math!
Vaya con Dios!
I really appreciate your reply! As for what you said about my dad’s information being dated, I think you’re right. He said the course took him 15-20 hours a week, from what he could remember. I think it’s very possible that it is far more rigorous now.
And you are right, about me still wanting to get in for the wrong reasons. Some part of me isn’t ready to admit that I might not be among the best, who get placed into this course. That’s just something I’ll have to come to terms with. But I will definitely keep studying math because that’s what I love, and if I get into UChicago, it will only do me more good by either giving me a head-start in Honors Calc, or giving me the tools I need to take Honors Analysis. I’ll definitely take your advice about e-mailing John Boller, providing I get in.
Wish me luck!
My advice? Kill that part of you right now.
Not saying you can’t place into the course - I have little to no idea what your abilities in math are beyond “grades good enough to apply to UChicago” - but the level is bound to be intense. There’ll be people taking HA who are among the top 100 mathematicians our age in the country. Tying one’s idea of success to being among the best in that course is a bad idea for well over 90% of a highly qualified student body.
This is true of most subjects, of course. Such is the way of the world at places like UChicago: only a handful of a class’ ~2000 students can be among the best.
With that said, do the best you can, and if you make it through Honors Analysis I’ll be more than a little impressed.
@HydeSnark thanks for all the incredibly useful information. I have heard that Max P tends to be the dorm where most of the athletes are. True? If true, is Max P not optimal non-athletes? What dorm are you in?
@boatlift That is true, mostly because Max P is right next to Ratner. However it is certainly not true that everyone in Max is an athlete, or that all the athletes live in Max.
I live in BJ, objectively the best dorm. BJ is the only dorm at UChicago that is a castle, complete with a keep and ramparts, and now the only dorm besides I-House where you are practically guaranteed to get a single. Along with Snitchcock, BJ attracts the most “UChicago” types who want to stay up in the lounge, say, inventing their own religion (which my house did first week, complete with registering it with the IRS with a housemate’s home in Texas as our headquarters) or arguing about politics or building a pillow fort instead of going to parties. Certainly, there are people in BJ who party or are involved in Greek Life, but you have to actively seek it out, as opposed to in other dorms where I have heard you have to actively avoid it.
BJ also has the unique feature of each house being physically separate parts of the dorm, each with their own entrance with the name of the house carved on the lintel. BJ also has the smallest houses at UChicago, and these two features combine to form some of the most close knit house cultures at UChicago. You will know your entire house and it really starts to feel like an extended family. My house has study breaks once a week where we go to our RH’s cosy living room, eat cookies, talk about our lives, and watch Star Trek. Everyone in the house shows up. Other dorms, especially South and Max P, have houses that all blend together. The houses are huge (100+ people), you won’t know everyone, and it becomes little more than a default table in the dining hall and an occasional source of field trips.
Despite our singles, BJ is actually a very social dorm. People have their singles to retreat in when they feel overwhelmed or just have to get work done, but in every single house the lounge is the hub of house activity and people are constantly popping in and out of each other’s rooms. No one feels like a pariah for living by themselves.
As for amenities, BJ may not be as fancy and shiny as the newer dorms, but we do have the best dining hall on campus inside of it, two large fireplace-lit Hogwarts-like lounges with lots of sofas and tables and a grand piano in each one (and one of them is a library, too), numerous study rooms, and a massive basement with a kitchen and a movie theater. The rooms are the largest in the school (almost every double is actually a suite with two rooms - you can either configure it as two separate bedrooms or make a bedroom and a study-room), and we are getting two more dorm-wide lounges back next year when North opens and our dining hall doesn’t have to hold the house tables for New-Grad and Broadview anymore.
And, if all that isn’t a good reason to come to BJ, we are very good at Scav.
@HydeSnark Super helpful, thanks. So, you don’t feel you’re missing anything being in a single? No sense of isolation or loneliness?
@boatlift I actually have one of the few doubles in BJ. But no, I don’t think people with singles in BJ feel that way. It’s actually the best of both worlds - you have your own room to retreat into if you need to but there’s always people to hang out with if you want to. It’s very, very hard to feel isolated in BJ unless you purposefully lock yourself in your room for days on end and never go to study breaks or eat at the house table or visit the lounge. There are many introverts who ended up in BJ because they wanted a single and then ended up being more social than they ever were in their life because they felt like they found a similar group of people.
Also, having a roommate is no guarantee of being social. There are some people who choose to lock themselves in their room all day and some of them even have roommates. But I sincerely believe there isn’t a better place for an introvert who needs space but also doesn’t want to be isolated. The dynamic of a dorm where almost everyone has a single is very different from a dorm where most people have roommates and there’s a few singles. Like I said in the comment above, people are constantly popping in and out of each others rooms. No one wants to be alone in a single 100% of the time so people hang out in their friends rooms, forming little almost-roommate pairs that are usually even better than random roommates because they’re based on people who know they get along.
Your defence of BJ is admirable, Mr. Snark. The place sounds very much today as it was when I lived there in the sixties (down to the grand piano, likely the same one, in the library). It seemed venerable and ancient even then but hardly fashionable, as were those upstarts, Pierce Towers and New Dorms (aka Woodward Court), which, like many shiny things, did not stand the test of time. In those days law students occupied the eastern half of BJ, occasioning culture wars in the form of snowball fights. One Friday I and my housemates huddled around a radio at our table in the dining hall, listening to the unfolding story of the assassination of a President. On another occasion Milton Friedman was our guest at that same table and afterwards adjourned with us to the library for cognac and cigars, where he actually seemed to take seriously our incoherent objections to capitalism. The ghetto lay only a block away, and the sound of sirens wafted through the windows at all times of night and day. Once some of us watched an enormous fire destroy a building on 63rd - a cheerful event briefly uniting students with the neighborhood’s more permanent residents. And the collegiality you spoke of? --Six strangers, who came from many different places to meet in Chamberlin House on a certain fall day and to become friends, are still in regular contact. Friendship is a precious thing. In my experience BJ was a good place to find it.
Has Maclean been shut down? Or just forgotten, as usual? Apart from one palatial triple, it is/was 100% singles. Also only a block from Ratner.