<p>No matter whether you are religious or not, there will always be some people who will do or say nutty or obnoxious things to make you and your beliefs look bad.</p>
<p>I read this morning that Harold Camping now says the day of the Rapture is October 21st of this yer. I guess this was a dress rehearsal. The article didn’t say why he got the date wrong. Details, details, details!</p>
<p>Onward,
I heard that as well. I heard that he said he made a math calculation error.</p>
<p>edit:
Here’s an article about it. It is an interesting read <a href=“http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/B3/20110524/NJNEWS18/305240016/Doomday-preacher-Harold-Camping-gives-new-date-end-world?odyssey=nav|head[/url]”>http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/B3/20110524/NJNEWS18/305240016/Doomday-preacher-Harold-Camping-gives-new-date-end-world?odyssey=nav|head</a> here are some snipits
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<p>I dont think Mini is mocking at all.</p>
<p>And every reading of the Bible is metaphorical, though some folks like to think their interpretation is the only “literal” one. I have actually done significant Bible reading/study, Eddie, and I do not read it that way. But again, I’m not going to debate; I’m just going to assert that many people, not just me, do not interpret these complex, metaphor-and-parable-filled writings the same way.</p>
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<p>I hope Camping’s followers do not realize the full significance of that statement. What he is saying is that God has finished judging you. Any sins you commit now will not matter. These same crazies who were holding up signs asking us to repent could now decide to go around raping and pillaging with impunity. Things could get ugly.</p>
<p>I hope, like colleges, God reserved the right to rescind admission to heaven.</p>
<p>mini, none of the Christian doctrine I’m familiar with views the after-life as “escapism”, although both believers and non-believers could see death that way. Views of the after-life - or lack of one - can justify crime and sin to some, just as they can be a comfort to others.</p>
<p>In the Christian view, heaven is not an escape, but a next stage. It does not mitigate the believer’s responsibility to live life to the fullest, to live it as well as we can, and to love God and our neighbors. As a minister told me years ago, how we live our lives is up to us. Whether we go to heaven is up to God. Therefore Christians should not spend a lifetime worrying about heaven per se. Or, to quote the Bible, let the dead bury the dead.</p>
<p>Most of the traditional Christianity I’m familiar with views this world as full of sin - so-called “Original” sin, the sins of the world, and (for much of Christianity’s history) evil inherent in nature itself. Through the necessary belief and/or practice, one could transcend (read: escape) this fate through salvation, to be gained only through death - first the death, blood, and resurrection of the founder, and then only in one’s death. “Salvation” is not to be attained in this lifetime, only in the next. </p>
<p>Grafted on to this set of beliefs is that of an end time. Jesus clearly saw himself as an end-time prophet, as did his early followers. In the end time, followers would be taken up, and/or the dead would rise up, judgment would be made, the good (or those predestined) would be saved, the rest landing in eternal damnation. And yes, personally, I see the combination of these two beliefs as a mental delusion - and I acknowledge that others will see it differently. Camping’s belief is essentially no different from that of the majority of American Christians according to the most recent survey I’ve seen - the difference being that he sets a date specific, whereas they believe that it will be “sometime before 2050”.</p>
<p>As the end time didn’t happen as plan, later Christian writers began to develop rules for living while one waits.</p>
<p>I am not mocking anything. I know my Bible pretty well. I am sure Jesus was not a Jewish rabbi, because we have historical documents from the period and from the Talmud, and the idea of an unmarried Jewish rabbi is a non-starter. (Jesus also doesn’t seem to know his Tanach particularly well, at least as we see in the Gospels - there are errors all over the place.) His relationships with women seem to be odd, to say the least, and those with men seem to be much closer. As to what they actually consisted of is pure speculation.</p>
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<p>Yes, religious Senioritis is a terrible thing.</p>
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<p>Sorry, mini! Never heard the 2050 date, either. Camping’s beliefs are very different. I’m curious as to your religious background and where you may have heard these things.</p>
<p>Here’s info on the poll: [Daily</a> Number: Jesus Christ’s Return to Earth - Pew Research Center](<a href=“Jesus Christ’s Return to Earth | Pew Research Center”>Jesus Christ’s Return to Earth | Pew Research Center)
“Only” 23% said it would definitely happen before 2050; another 18% said it would probably happen by then. It appears that people weren’t asked to give a date, but were asked if they thought it would occur before 2050.</p>
<p>^ Those are huge numbers, and pretty shocking numbers. If so many people believe the world will likely end by 2050, they are likely to have a very different attitude towards long term public issues like the environment, the budget deficit, and whether today’s children will need retirement benefits.</p>
<p>Edit: I do not sense a mocking tone in mini’s posts either. I also don’t mean to mock anyone by saying that there is no God and that people who believe in God are delusional.</p>
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Well, maybe “mock” is not the right word. I do think it’s kind of an insult, though. But bless your hears, you atheists. You just don’t know any better, I suppose.</p>
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This is a joke, right?</p>
<p>Wow. The arrogance abounds throughout this thread.</p>
<p>Camping is a cook, IMO. And as for the “majority” of Christians believing in some sort of “end time”, my own personal take on Christ “returning” to this world is …</p>
<p>–that He did indeed teach a new way of living and relating to others. Instead of loving your neighbors, Christ taught that we are to love even enemies; He treated everyone equally (even women…and Mini’s take on that is just out there); He spoke of the way one lived being much more important than any sort of “religious” ceremony or custom; etc. …</p>
<p>…Christ-followers are to emulate those teachings and live the way Christ taught. In short, we are to BE CHRIST in this world;</p>
<p>…to the extent that happens…as more and more people seek to live like Christ taught, He will indeed RETURN to this world. </p>
<p>Do I personally believe that believers will one day just disappear from the world in some apocalyptic event? Nope. It makes for entertaining fiction some times, though.</p>
<p>So you believe his return is symbolic, not literal?</p>
<p>And is Camping really a cook? Or a kook?</p>
<p>As an atheist in America I feel marginalized and looked down upon all the time. The money says “in God we trust”. The President has to end every speech with “God Bless America”. The pledge of allegiance says “under God”. Religious groups and politicians portray atheists as not just ignorant, but bad people, dangerous people. We have openly gay politicians holding public office today- I don’t know how many openly atheist politicians hold public office. There are probably more atheists in the closet than gays in the closet in America today. </p>
<p>But an atheist who says simply that God is a delusion is considered arrogant and insulting? </p>
<p>This has happened before- blacks, feminists, gays, were all portrayed as offensive and uppity for daring to say what they did. Atheists are not persecuted or officially discriminated against, but there is still a very big stigma associated with atheism.</p>
<p>churchmusicmom, I agree, there is a lot of arrogance on this thread.</p>
<p>Anyone read The God Delusion by Dawkins?</p>
<p>Perhaps one reason there is such a stigma attached to atheism is that atheists tend to say things like religious people are “delusional” or their beliefs are “fairy tales.” If nothing else, atheists need to work on their PR.</p>
<p>Edited to add: Bless their hearts.</p>
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<p>Because the term “delusional” is frequently associated with pathology and mental illness, then yes, using that term when describing anyone who believes differently from you could be seen as offensive and insulting.</p>
<p>Camping would be happy to know that there are atheists discussing his predictions. I doubt that he cares what other Christians think about it. He wants to reach the rest of you. Up to this point, I’ve pretty much ignored his prophecy. I just couldn’t ignore anyone who wants to lump me in the same category as this man.</p>
<p>Hunt is there a respectful, non-arrogant way for me to say that God is a delusion? On a message board? If I were to say it to your face I would have a calm face, a normal pitch and volume, and no smirk on my face. Just a matter of (what I consider to be) fact tone.</p>
<p>God is either a delusion or he is not a delusion. The earth is round or it isn’t. Whether someone says these things rudely or politely does not change who is right.</p>
<p>To the religious establishment, Galileo was being arrogant and rude just by saying that the Earth was round.</p>