I think the U.K. tends to emphasize those because you study nothing else other than history for 3 years. In the US most would say that GEs should teach you those skills. Whether that’s as rigorously as the U.K. depends on the college, but it is certainly the selling point of LACs. The US then adds a major on top, because they have 4 years to fill, although that’s typically done in much less depth than the U.K.
There’s an argument to be made that if the GEs taught you the transferable general skills, then the major should teach you skills that might be more relevant to a specific job. But that really depends on whether you are seeking a career with specific requirements (CS, engineering, medicine etc). And on the quality of the GE courses.
Conversely, there’s an argument to be made that if the major doesn’t teach you anything more than the GEs (viz the criticism of “activism-based” degrees above), then it’s not adding much value.
In the “studies” part of your position, I would have likely paid in state tuition, room and board, which was always what I said I would definitely pay for. To pay more than in-state tuition, room and board, parent got to make judgment call on the “worth” or “benefit” of going that path (not always just ROI, although in my initial post here I may have made it sound like that’s what I was in favor of.
Agree. But my point was not about not going to college or choosing “simple” jobs for life . My point is kids can “adult” for couple years by working simple jobs then can go for community college for two years working part time, then at age 25 transfer to flagship or other colleges with full FA. Then they can work and many businesses will pay for masters part time. Result is 0 loans and responsible adults. Parents can retire. Adult kids are independent and understand real value of money and hard work. Kids in our society are way too entitled. Money grows to them on the trees and parents have to do this and that and can’t force them to do anything. They are taught in public schools that they can choose to do waterver they want to do and say no to activities or obligations suggested by parents. Many do not even want to work. They prefer money to be earned by themselves while they are streaming or gaming.
I have met several adults who survived and made through college by themselves but they were very upset that their parents did not pay for their college education.
There is an opportunity cost to delaying a degree for so many years-- you’re not talking about a Gap year while a kid figures things out- you’re talking about a decade earning minimum wage before getting a job which requires a college degree. That’s a decade not contributing to your retirement plan, a decade without employee benefits in many cases, a decade without the kind of advancement possible in a professional level job.
If the family cannot afford college- well, there it is- that’s your option. The ten year plan. But I know people who refuse to give up the ski trips, the “island in February when the whether is cold” trip at a five star resort, the summer rental in a fancy location because “my kid can work his way through college like I did”. These are people with an upper middle class income and lifestyle who insist that it’s possible to “make it” while stocking shelves at Kroger and taking once course at a time.
Yes, it’s possible. And for kids whose families have no resources, it’s the plan. But it hardly optimizes one’s lifetime earning potential (for the people who obsess about ROI) to have someone delay their launch into the professional workforce because their parents value the golf and tennis club and the many, many trips over helping their kid with tuition.
I think ROI is just one of many variables- but most of the folks I know who are insisting that their kids “go it alone” seem obsessed with it. Why pay for the state flagship for elementary ed when the “same” degree is available at the local directional?
I’m not sure why these folks make sure their kid has every advantage (and then some) growing up, but when it comes time for college they are counting every penny and worrying about ROI.
What was the ROI on the brand new jeep you bought your kid for his 17th birthday? What was the ROI on the designer bag your daughter got for her Sweet 16?
I think there are countries where the cost of college might make this a reasonable proposition, but the US is not one of those. There are also countries where underemployment is a big problem, why would you do that purposely here by making bright people capable of productive jobs work minimum wage for years in the hope they eventually get enough aid to get a bachelors - because you’re not going to be saving enough working minimum wage, even if your first two years at at a CC?
Anyway I guess it’s also a difference in parental priorities. Some seem indignant at parents being “expected” to pay for college. i see education as the single most important gift I can give my kids in life.
Well, I agree with what you say in general, except it is their money. That is the thing. If parents worked very hard (and didn’t inherited their fortune), it is their choice how to spend hard earned money in their 50s. If they need ski trip - fine with me. If some designer bag make them happy (I do not get it), but again their choise. They have another 10-15 years to enjoy life they worked so hard for. After that it is medical bills and survival. They spend enormous money and energy to raise kids, they do not need to sacrifice their silver years too.
Yes and no. If we were looking for the definition of ROI, we would be more price sensitive. We are looking for 1. a reputable school that has not lost sight of its educational mission, 2. a degree that leads to gainful employment and a career, and 3. a good fit for our student.
Agree it is their money. I know my friends who won’t pay for college think that I’m insane for the educational and financial choices that I’ve made. I keep my mouth shut (to them) about their priorities- they mostly do NOT keep their mouths shut because it’s much easier to bash “what kind of idiot pays full freight for college” than it is to bash the kind of consumption choices they’ve made.
Keeps life interesting. I’ve got a mostly former friend who I’ve managed to shake loose because the “If you hadn’t paid so much for college you’d be retired by now and playing pickle ball with us every day” trope got really old really fast. Plus it was inaccurate- I could easily afford to retire right now (can’t see myself playing pickle ball but whatever) but I choose not to advertise that fact.
All true - they also didn’t have to have kids at all if they really were more interested in their ski trips than setting their children up for success.
Of course, people are entitled to choose to be selfish - that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be pointed out to them.
Seems like most of the discussion in posts #123-#130 just reinforces the fact that your college choice is not mostly based on your achievements in high school. The most important constraints on your college choice are your parents’ financial circumstances and choices (i.e. what they can pay for and what they are willing to pay for). Your achievements in high school only matter within the limitation of your parents’ financial circumstances and choices.
There are many, many feeder schools where major doesn’t matter. Don’t mistake a Dartmouth Art History major for a sign that it’s a major that the Bulge brackets want - they’re looking for the school first and really don’t care about the major. They’re primarily looking for quantitative skills - so the engineer at no name school has a shot.
I have no idea what you are talking about… What bias? That parents should have a choice? What issues? That students can be successful using different paths?
Do you think parents are obligated to pay for college education? I do not. But I do pay but not full freight. 3 full freights would be over 1 million dollars in our case. Sorry, being middle class, I can’t afford it and never tried. We would not qualify for aid at 90% of places. Does it make me a bad parent? I don’t think so… Oh, and apparently I made a bad decision to have 3 kids close in age (OMG all three are in college at the same time…) How stupid…
That is a good point, the article I read didn’t say the schools, though with things like musiuc performance likely it isn’t an ivy or whatnot because they don’t offer performance degrees (it could be Goldman would only recruit from places like Juilliard, it would fit their M.O for sure). There are still jobs where an elite school degree is required, that is for sure.
They do care about the major, it isn’t just the school ( there are exceptions, with old boy network hiring, they may not care about the major, it is ‘this is Jack Snow’s son Jack Jr, the CEO would very much want us to hire him’) but the school can matter in those kind of jobs , yes. Google used to play around with that crap with where they would hire as did several of the other tech giants, and they found it was not getting them the results they wanted, that the 4.0 from an elite school didn’t necessarily equate to what they wanted (which anyone who ever studied organizational behavior and management could tell them).
I don’t recall where it was, there were articles in I believe the WSJ, I think the Times did and I am pretty certain I saw postings on LinkedIn about it. This was several years ago, but working in that industry I also have heard that from people who worked there, that they were looking for people who didn’t fit the standard mould and so forth. Whether they kept up with it, I don’t know, Investment banking has had its own paroxysms, things have changed in how they operate in many ways, but hopefully they realize that where you went to school may not mean as much as the old blue bloods used to think.
That is up to them of course and everyone has to make those choices for themselves. We chose a different path but we knew what we were getting into, it was one of the reasons we ended up with only the one child, for a number of reasons for example. If parents don’t want to pay for college or only will pay a certain amount, that is their right, and honestly it is their business. There are equally a lot of people who look at what people sacrifice for their kids and say “you are crazy to do that”, which isn’t their right either. I also have seen parents who force their kids into certain careers or into something they wanted to do (very common in music or sports) and push the kids to glorify themselves, and since it is their kids whatever I think doesn’t matter, it is their right.
There also are consequences to decisions, the parent who won’t pay for college or tries forcing the kid into things may find out they have a very distant relationship when the kid grows up, have seen more than a few people who made choices like that who were bitter that their kids weren’t close to them shrug.
The only thing I would say is that parents once the kids starting getting older should talk to their kids about what they expect or what they can do to help or are willing, so the kid knows, be honest with them.
One thing that is kind of a myth is the working your way through college that people love to throw around. A good friend of mine who is in his mid 50’s now worked full time as a garbage pickup guy to pay his way through school. Back then you could, today, not so much, not with the tuition where it is, also many schools have eliminated night or early morning classes that allowed people to do that (my alma mater did that, when I heard I stopped donating to the school). It is extremely difficult to do it, especially if you are talking relatively low wage jobs (often when you do that, try to take let’s say a class or two a semester, it is still expensiive as heck, and they won’t give you aid because they consider it part time from what i hear).
100%.
Back when I was in college tuition was like 4k. Yes, I could work and pay at least partially for college. With current $30k a year it is impossible to earn enough during summer and working part-time during school year.
