I think any discussion of IB really needs to distinguish between an actual IB diploma program in the 11th and 12th grade and a certificate program. Frankly, I do not know that I get the point of taking a mix of IB courses and AP courses. The entire point of the IB curriculum is to develop a rigorous, thematic curriculum (at least four of the six required courses must stretch over two years) and pair it with the Creativity, Action, Service (CAS) requirement, some individual assessments in particular classes, the Theory of Knowledge class (TOK) and the extended essay. By contrast, a If you are not doing all of those things, then really you are just taking discrete classes (the certificate program means that you have taken a class labeled as IB) in certain areas, and you might as well just stay in the AP world. It is far cheaper, likely less demanding, and as pointed out up the thread, easier to get college credit/test out of pre requisites.
Over all I agree with @Marian about size. There were 40 ish kids in my son’s IB program when it was all said and done. It can get kind of small, but it also allowed the kids to forge some real strong relationships. In my son’s particular circumstance, he was able to maintain a larger circle of friends because of his involvement in sports and some extra curriculars (theater, literary mag, that kind of thing). But for a kid who does not have a ton of involvement in non academic endeavors, I am sure that the IB diploma world can get pretty insular.
FWIW, in addition to the Diploma Program, the IB organization certifies two other programs. The Middle Years program (9th and 10th grade) and the Primary Years program (6th, 7th and 8th grade). My son’s high school did not offer the Middle Years program so I don’t know much about that. My wife’s school district just started rolling into the IB world in the last couple years and has a Primary Years and Middle Years program. So far at least, she likes the Middle Years program but thinks the kids in middle school are too young to really benefit from the separate Primary Years IB program.
Generally you can get a 5, 6 or 7 and get credit for a IB HL class. My DD graduated a year and half early because of the IB diploma. You can get more credit in some colleges for doing the entire diploma program vs. just taking IB courses.
Eg. SUNY BInghamton:
Students in the International Baccalaureate Diploma Program may receive up to 32 credits. To receive the full 32 credits, the following conditions must be met:
The IB Diploma must be completed with a score of 30 or more points; and
The student must complete at least three Higher Level exams with a score of 5 or higher.
Diploma holders who meet these conditions receive credit for their individual exam scores plus additional liberal arts elective credit to total 32 credits.
“By contrast, a If you are not doing all of those things, then really you are just taking discrete classes (the certificate program means that you have taken a class labeled as IB) in certain areas, and you might as well just stay in the AP world. It is far cheaper, likely less demanding, and as pointed out up the thread, easier to get college credit/test out of pre requisites.”
DD16 chose the IB classes based on the syllabus-she prefers depth to breadth, and it looked like the IB Bio HL was what she was looking for more than the AP. In many schools the syllabus in an AP class and the syllabus in an IB class will look identical, but not here.
She wasn’t looking for cheaper, she did chose some AP courses because they were less demanding (AP lit vs IB HL lit), and college credit is such a crapshoot depending on where she ends up we decided not to let it be a factor. It’s so hard nowadays to pursue learning for its own ends, so we were trying to encourage that versus “gaming” the system. She’ll likely take the AP tests for Bio and Physics at the end of this year (she’s already taken the Comp Sci one), so the potential for AP college credit is still there. (ok, a little bit of gaming going on.)
It may not work out as efficiently or as, um, academically elite as a schedule that was more typical, but we tend not to be tidy path followers-we’re all rather squiggly, but we usually get there.
This assumes that individual IB courses and individual AP courses are both available – which may not be the case. Some schools or school systems that make a big commitment to IB offer few or no AP courses.
DS received an IB diploma two years ago in a school that pushes it heavily. I think at least a quarter of the students get the full diploma, and many more take a course or two.
Pros: your child will get lots of practice reading and writing. He will learn how to “not read” everything assigned, which is good training for college, where effective skimming is a necessary skill for many humanities courses.
DS’s writing improved tremendously. He went from repeating a thesis, over and over, to addressing it from different angles. Some of that would have happened even without IB as he matured.
Cons: Math. IB Math HL is silly. DS was forced to take it for the diploma, but still wanted to drop out and forego the diploma. He had taken Calc AB/BC and various other courses. The school twisted his arm and he finished the IB Math course.
My school system has the MYP and the Diploma programme. The MYP is actually five years (grades 6,7,8,9,10), although it can be abbreviated. The Primary Years Programme comes before the MYP. (There are a few issues as the middle school MYP kids transition to the high school with the Diploma Programme in my school system…)
Some high schools may not offer both the IB HL and AP versions of the same general subject, so a student who does not want to do the full IB diploma but does want to take some advanced level courses may only have an IB HL option in some subjects.
At my son’s college, a 6 on the IB HL test is treated as equivalent to a 4 on the AP and a 7 on the IB HL is treated as a 5 on the AP. From what he and his buddies experienced, it was easier to get a 5 on the AP test than even a 6 on the IB HL. The big problem though is that the schools he looked at did not give credit/advanced placement for SL tests.
I think I get that, and yes course to course the IB classes may be more rigorous. It certainly was at my son’s school (year 1 of his HL chem class was pretty much identical to the AP chem class for example). But my point was that IB is intended to be an all in type of environment. So much of the program depends on the thematic curriculum, the extended essay, TOK, etc. It just doesn’t seem like a great fit for a pick and choose approach. And I agree with you about learning for learning’s sake and not letting cost drive too much of this. But I can tell you it was a real happy day in our house when we learned that the IB tests were going to cost a grand, and that the kid still wanted to take a couple AP tests at $100 a pop
Very true. Hadn’t thought about that.
Thanks for the info. Maybe what the wife’s district is doing is just the MYP program then. Either way, she says it doesn’t seem to make much difference until high school from what she sees so far.
I think this is to be expected. The Primary and MYP programs are supposed to be suited for all students. The Diploma Programme is intended for academically talented students only.
If you are considering an IB program as an option, you need to investigate, as best you can, how well the program is delivered. Not all IB programs in the US are equal. (My kids went to the same one as Marian’s, and on the whole I thought it was well delivered–but it was a magnet, and had been there for many years by the time my kids enrolled.)
I agree with most of what others have said. I think, in my D’s case, she would have gotten more credits if she had done AP, but she loved IB and her writing skills vastly improved. I agree with the comments about it being like a school within a school, she loved that aspect and that is what lead her to choosing an Honors College this year at University.
We worried that if she didn’t do IB when her school offered it, colleges might question that she didn’t follow most rigorous path.
I agree that you need to make sure the IB offerings work for your child. Our school has an IB Diploma program and also allows a la carte IB classes. However, the offerings are more humanities focused than you might think if you didn’t look at the SL vs. HL distribution. The HL offerings are IB English, History of the Americas, Visual Arts, Spanish, Latin, and French (and ToK). The SL-only offerings are Math and Biology. There is no IB Chemistry or Physics offered. So, it doesn’t work for a STEM kid, especially one who is advanced in math. There is an equivalently or more rigorous path via AP and dual-enrollment for STEM kids.
The upper-level foreign language classes at his school are all combo classes. Spanish contains both SL and HL students, and they get different assignments. French and Latin have fewer overall students and so are combos of AP/IB SL/IB HL
My son is taking IB Spanish SL because he likes that Spanish teacher much better than the AP teacher (has had both previously). At his school, IB kids take foreign language as SL junior year and HL senior year. (They says that’s because you can’t take the SL test junior year and would forget too much by senior year.) Anyway, he will take the AP Spanish test this junior year. The teacher says she goes over the format of the AP test in spring, and the kids are well-prepared for the AP test. He may take HL his senior year, depending on his schedule. That would not be for IB credit, but just to have better proficiency.
He considered taking IB English and/or History of the Americas this year, but preferred the AP curriculum, the 1 year commitment, and the ability to also take AP Gov/AP Econ senior year.
The issues have to do with differing (lesser) entrance standards for MYP at the IB high school for the kids already in the MYP program at the MYP middle school than the (much more difficult) standards for the kids entering the MYP program at the high school in 9th grade from one of the other middle schools (I live in an area with a big school system).
At the school Marian is talking about, I don’t believe you can get into the MYP program at all unless you come from the one middle school that has it. Some of those kids go into full IB, and some don’t, but some of those who do may have some issues keeping up, because the other full IB students come in through a very selective process.
As an example of the above, for in-state students applying to UF (which uses holistic admissions), this can be a real concern. UF puts a lot of weight behind class rigor (second only to GPA), and if offered, the IB program is usually the most rigorous program at a Florida high school.
The UF admission folks have also done studies that looked at various acceleration mechanisms and compared the average first year GPA’s (at UF) by mechanism.
The first time they looked at the results:
I.B. 3.08
A.P 3.02
D.E. 2.65
No acceleration 2.60
The second time they looked at the results:
A.P. 3.12
I.B. 3.10
D.E. 2.75
No acceleration 2.63
At my kid’s school, IB Diploma students are the only ones who get the coveted “most rigorous curriculum available” check on their Counselor’s report submitted with the college application, unless a student is not a Diploma candidate because they are doing more advanced work, for instance, taking math well beyond IB and AP Calc offerings, at a nearby college. For some students aiming for highly selective admissions, that is an important factor.
Otherwise, at our school, AP is a definite step down in terms of work load, challenge, and rigor. The best teachers want to teach IB because that is where the most interesting, focused students are.
Curriculum-wise, IB emphasizes critical thinking, reading and writing – all essential college-level skills. While AP covers an enormous amount of material in a single year, the tests are often considered to be focused on memorization than critical thinking. Some kids may be more comfortable in that testing environment.
Looking ahead to the IB/AP decision, I would suggest the key questions are to understand what are the actual patterns and expectations in your specific IB/AP program. Is AP equal to IB in rigor and expectation? Is there an overlapping peer group between the two? How about the teaching staff? And does the IB curriculum make sense for a particular student – is there sufficient depth and breadth in IB courses offered in the student’s area of interest? Some IB programs do a marvelous job offering lots of IB science courses. Others (including ours), not so much. For my kids, who are not STEM-y, that didn’t matter. But if someone had different strengths and priorities, it would.
In Florida, what level of courses do dual-enrollment students typically take? Do they take college-frosh level courses (what AP and IB HL courses target, e.g. single variable calculus in math), more advanced courses (e.g. multivariable calculus in math), or less advanced courses (e.g. precalculus in math)?
Much depends on the particular school / programs. Talk to some of your local IB / AP parents.
Our kids attended the district magnet IB hs (not our home hs). The offered it by application (about half accepted), and it was all/nothing. About half drop before 11th grade and opt to do ala carte AP courses instead. Those that stay work VERY hard. IB was great for one of my kids but not the other.
Here in India the entire IB program is offered by some schools - PYP, MYP and IB. My son is currently in the PYP program and it is certainly a great way for kids to learn. None of the rote learning so typical in Indian schools. Lots of great thinking, research, field trips. Unit based learning. This unit is advances in medical technology - so they are doing science and writing based on that topic, researching that topic, field trip to a hospital, projects, etc.
MYP is a late comer to India because it didn’t offer a standardized exam at 10th grade. However, that has changed and now many schools are willing to incorporate the MYP as well. (Many switched to IGCSE for the middle school start of high school.)
IB has been the stand in for 11th and 12th in many of the international schools for a long time. Very well respected here. My daughter’s school offer the full IB Diploma. For kids who can’t or don’t want to do that, there is a regular school diploma that they can earn (very few take this option.) And yes, they do the IBD while pursuing all the same ECs, doing test prep for SAT and ACT tests, writing college essays, etc.
@ucbalumnus They usually take college freshman/sophomore classes at the local community college. In fact, it’s possible to earn your AA degree while in high school, but most do not (they mix AP classes with DE and honor classes).
