@Eeyore123 I think it’s still an evolving situation at Harvard. I’d wager money that they’ll offer some in person course, even if it’s to take @AlmostThere2018 's suggestion.
Well colleges and universities could cut jobs and admin relative to the number of full pay students they lose. For some with competitive requirements, students can be replaced. For others it will be impossible.
Very hard for international students to adapt to time changes, costs and more.
I don’t think Harvard or anyone else has enough room for all students. They can’t just bring back international kids at the expense of every other student. Even if they were able to offer a class with no academic content.
The situation is fluid. I’d bet International students are scrambling right now for a gap year or other program. Many international students have a US connection so perhaps some don’t need a visa.
I’d be sceptic anything can be resolved quick enough for a September start.
So is taking one hybrid course and all other courses online sufficient? And can the hybrid course just meet one or a few times in person? Seems unclear.
Those who dislike foreigners and/or colleges will applaud this policy.
Colleges and universities have already cut jobs, cut salaries, furloughs and have hiring freezes. Google any school.
Pre-covid, international students were not allowed to take their classes online (or at most one class). Even if the student wanted to take a really interesting class (or 2) online, it may not have been possible. The colleges are responsible for their international students and if the students could take all the classes online, the student could live anywhere and the college could lose track of the student.
Rules were adjusted in the spring, but most internationals either went home or stayed at the school, they were not scattering all around the country.
This rule says freshmen will not be allowed to take all classes online. They could decide on a gap year and apply for the visa the second year. I don’t see were it says an online student can NEVER apply for a student visa in the future. The rule says other students must take the minimum number of classes online. If the school only offers one in person class, then the student will have to take the other 3-4 classes online. If the school offers 4 in person classes, the student will have to take all 4 of those.
Travel is restricted for all kinds of things. Right now, embassies and consulates are closed except for emergency travel visas/passports. Student visas aren’t emergencies. The schools will still be there when the covid crisis is over. There are other visas that aren’t available now either - for marriages, for adoptions, for relatives to come to the US, for new H1b visa and for H4s. I read an article about the wife of an H1b visa who went home to India in February and her 5 year old can’t get her H4 visa renewed because the embassy is closed. There really isn’t anything they can do and it is not an emergency. US students aren’t getting to go to school in France or China either.
I think this is awful and a long-term blow to both US education and the US generally. I live overseas and put my kids through international schools. While my kids have US citizenship, many of their classmates who are now studying at US universities do not and we can assume that many of those schools will end up going online this fall. Maybe there will be workarounds, maybe the kids can take a gap year, maybe they can stay up all night doing online courses, but the bottom line is the US is deliberately making them unwelcome and that will have longer-term consequences. I’m heartbroken and embarrassed.
Well said.
What do you suggest the US do? The embassies/consulates are only processing emergency documents. Many people are waiting to get to the US. How would all these students get to the US? There are not a lot of international flights coming this way. Even Canadians have a hard time getting into the US.
For those students who are here, they have the warning and can make plans. It isn’t a change in policy (foreign students can’t take online classes now as their only classes) but it is notice that they AREN’T changing the policy. The colleges have to make it work for their students. Offer the courses needed in person.
@tkoparent is the country you live in inviting all the US students to fly in and start school on time? Are their embassies in the US open to process the documents needed for study abroad or international students from the US?
It’s easier with a lecture class for sure. I had several students at UCLA this quarter take my class from home in China. I gave a normal lecture over Zoom but then posted the video on the course website for students unable to attend the lecture. After taking a poll at the beginning of the quarter, I made sure to schedule my office hours so that students in different time zones could attend at least one or two each week. Exams were posted on the course website in the morning (LA time), and students had 24 hours to complete the exam and submit it online. It wasn’t ideal, but we made it work.
Seminars and participation-heavy classes like foreign languages are a very different story.
I’m sure the attorneys for these schools and checking the requirements and working on a work around.
It’s despicable.
@twoinanddone , I don’t want to get into an argument, but I think you are conflating immigration issues and health issues. The country where I live is not allowing any non-citizens to enter at this time, for health reasons. I am not a citizen, so if I left, I would not be permitted back. It is a worry, if I send my son to US this fall and he becomes ill, I cannot go and help, but that’s a health issue. Although there may be an existing policy on online classes, that policy was adopted in very different circumstances. Extending the policy in this situation seems short-sighted and cruel, and it sends a strange message about how our country looks at international students. I am probably biased - I married my foreign TA in graduate school - but I do see this as a “big picture” issue that may harm the US’s ability to attract and keep talented people in the future. It will certainly harm the universities and seems to be the last thing they need right about now.
What are your thoughts about the possible repercussions and effect of the EU banning Americans? Should they allow American students to go to the EU to attend university this fall if the ban is still in effect?
I also wonder if students who stayed in the US will be permitted to apply for an exemption or waiver if they can demonstrate they are unable to return to their home country either due to travel restrictions or home life issues.
@vpa2019, I’m in Asia so I’m not fully up to speed on what other countries are doing, but it seems there is an exemption for students under the EU travel ban?
@tkoparent
Thank you that’s good news! I hope we can figure out a way to reciprocate.
I’m not sure if it is an ICE rule or a department of education rule that is incorporated into the ICE rules for visas, but I’d argue ICE already stretched the rule/regulation for the spring and can’t do so again without actually having a rule making procedure, with time to comment. That takes quite a long time. Congress could do it, but they too have a process. ICE is enforcing the law as written. If you don’t think the regulation is fair, there is a process to change it, but just saying ‘it’s not fair’ it isn’t the process.
Now we haven’t started classes yet, people have time to plan, and ICE has reminded everyone what the rule is. This is not a health issue. International students couldn’t take all classes online and get a visa to live in the US pre-covid and can’t now. That’s the rule. Say there was a energy emergency and travel was suspended so all school could only have online classes, the ICE position would be the same - International students aren’t allowed to take all classes online. World war, fires closing schools or travel (like Australia this year)? The international student can take the classes in their home country, just not physically in the US.
Why should international students get privileges that US students don’t get? @homerdog 's son doesn’t get to live on campus because he’s from Illinois but another sophomore from Canada or France (or even from Maine but who has an H4 visa) gets to live on campus and take in person classes, or just be there and take online only classes? That doesn’t seem fair to me.
But ICE doesn’t care if it is fair. ICE is enforcing regulations. If you want them changed, call your congressman.
@twoinanddone when you state that his son did not get housing on campus I think you need to give us the full picture what you mean. Reading your comment your making it sound like International students are “privileged” and Americans are being discriminated against. When my son’s college shutdown he didn’t have a choice to just go home as our airport was closed. Dad or mom could not just drive over to pick him up. So its not as easy as your stating. Plus online wasn’t the choice why we sent our kids to the US And unlike in-state we pay full price for an in-class experience. Those “privileged” kids benefit universities and are usually funded by their governments. The impact will be felt in the fall especially with not a lot of freshman and first year master students.
@twoinanddone , I didn’t mean to present it as a question of fairness. I just think the announcement was very bad policy. I just went back and read the actual rules, to see how “online” is defined. According to the Homeland Security site: “An online, or distance learning, course for the purpose of international student regulations means a course that is primarily offered through technology and does not require the student’s physical attendance for classes, examinations or other purposes integral to completion of the class.” I was hoping that where a class is held on a remote, but not asynchronous, basis, that might fall outside the definition, but that doesn’t seem clear. I think that’s the grey zone here, where the professor is speaking to the students live, and there can be real-time discussion, but the professor and the students are in different locations. Being in the US wouldn’t matter as much for true online-type classes where the students just login at a time convenient to them and there is not a lot of live discussion.
This. Phone calls have been made.