If Bush is unpopular, then why did us Republicans badly defeat the Democrats in 04'?

Parent Cafe
101

<p>DRJ4,</p>

<p>I’m just used to any non-ideological explanation getting labeled as somehow incomplete or wrong. Call it precedent, if you will.</p>

102

<p>Driver here is a link to the actual document which suspended the coward Bush from flying duty.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.realchange.org/bushgrnd.gif[/url]”>http://www.realchange.org/bushgrnd.gif&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>No one has ever challenged the authenticity of this document.</p>

103

<p>OK, I see you didn’t bother reading the op-ed by Col. Campenni. What has been challenged is the interpretation of the document by folks at sites such as “Realchange”. Are you suggesting that Major Bath (from your document) was also “AWOL”?

</p>

104

<p>

Those are strong words coming from someone who defends someone who flees the scene of an ambush to let his comrades deal with the issue and then files a report that not only inflates the nature of the action but totally leaves out the part about his fleeing.
<a href=“http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lip01.html[/url]”>http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-lip01.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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105

<p>driver,</p>

<p>"In reply to Opie, I share your brother’s view up to a point; I do think that having seen the elephant is a good thing for those in national government–although I don’t think that not having been there should be exclusionary, something Kerry himself noted when he was trotted out to defend Democrats running for office who hadn’t “been there.” "</p>

<p>This is just part of the story where throwing stones doesn’t leave either side clean. It something that shouldn’t be grounds for an arguement. </p>

<p>"I think your brother would agree that even a LRRP would find it unusual to have a new man come in and earn the Silver and Bronze Stars plus three Purple Hearts in four months. And I’ll bet he wouldn’t have abandoned his team and gone home on the technicality of three minor injuries. "</p>

<p>Actually, I don’t think he would find it unusal for anybody to try and get the hell out of there. Or blame them for doing so. From day one arriving at basecamp, his experiences effected him to this day. </p>

<p>First day in, the counterpart he was replacing had his legs blown off by a mine, on the guy’s last day. Or being out in the bush, coming across a div strength group of VC, calling in for extraction and being told “intelligence” doesn’t have any VC noted in that area, so he must be making it up, no extraction. We’ve had a few conversations over the years about what happened there. Not too many because even now, the memmories are pretty strong. </p>

<p>He doesn’t speak much about the things that happened, but from his grunt’s eye veiw, he doesn’t fault Kerry or his record of service. </p>

<p>There’s not a number of days inservice deductible for when a wound “counts” or not. People died their first days in, or last days incountry and some are still dying after they came home from injuries. </p>

<p>I would ask that you think before you say “he was just there four months…” That’s 120 days he beat the odds. The other guy never spent a day in harm’s way. </p>

<p>Understand I didn’t like Kerry as a choice either, but I will defend his time incountry because for some reason or another, it mattered to my brother. Someone who came home from Vietnam a much different person than the one who left.</p>

106

<p>Opie, I don’t think the criticism of Kerry’s service would have come up and certainly would not have gained the traction that it did had not Kerry decided to use it to his advantage. Had it not been for his bringing on one of his “band of brothers”, he would never had won the Iowa caucus and he would have sunk to oblivion. His “Reporting for Duty” at the convention was just the icing on the cake that put the bulls eye on his back from those who served with him who thought that his actions during and especially after his tour were shamefull. </p>

<p>As far as “the other guy never spent a day in harm’s way”, have you ever piloted a fighter? Do you not hear the news reports of jet pilots and crew being killed on a semi-regular basis in accidents? Did you not read the report that Driver linked that said 6 of the pilots with whom the author served never made it to their 30th birthday because of crashes? Certainly the job that Bush signed up for was much more hazardous than the Navy job that Kerry signed up for. It was Kerry’s bad luck, not his bravery, that resulted in his assignment becoming very hazardous.</p>

107

<p>FF,</p>

<p>“Yes, he was there for which I give him some credit … he could have gone to England and smoked dope with Clinton. However, it’s not like he was chomping on the bit to “serve his country”. He first tried to get out of serving entirely by getting a student deferment for grad school. When that didn’t pan out, he volunteered for the safest branch of the service during Nam - the Navy. When he volunteered for Swift Boat duty they were used in a non-combat mode and hence also very safe. Only after he was committed to it did they change their role to very dangerous duty. So, I would hardly characterize Kerry as Rambo. He’s certainly no John McCain.”</p>

<p>It’s funny you don’t see how your own arguement makes GW and his cronies look bad. You can’t use them to counter the guys service record, instead you have to use McCain, someone who Rove submarined to help GW win. </p>

<p>Does ANY of my (if you can find some) views of Kerry consider him to be a RAMBO like figure? But if you insist to paint the guy on his service record, you continue to paint GW into a corner as well. Frankly, 120 days incountry is still far more dangerous than 120 days in Georgia. </p>

<p>Besides I liked Alvin York ( a real hero) vs. Rambo (a fictional one) anyways. </p>

<p>It is pretty funny on this subject because no matter how hard you try to slam Kerry, GW still comes on worse. I would think you’d let it go as it draws more negative to GW who at worst faced weight gain eating fried foods vs Kerry who was actually near where somebody was shooting, even if it was “only 120 days”.</p>

108

<p>As indicated in my post above, no one tried to make Bush into a “hero”; Kerry tried to make himself into one and it backfired on him and the Democratic Party who longed for someone with military background to counter the Republican edge in this area. Little did they know that Kerry was a paper hero.</p>

109

<p>I didn’t say “he was just there four months…”–so it doesn’t belong in quotes.</p>

<p>This is what I said, and I’ll stand by it:“… even a LRRP would find it unusual to have a new man come in and earn the Silver and Bronze Stars plus three Purple Hearts in four months.” And I’ll add that one of those four months was spent in training, not patrolling the rivers. Of course, anyone in the theater could have a missile land on them.</p>

<p>While I have enormous respect for those who serve in combat, it is possible to serve dishonorably, no? I think that Kerry, after failing to get a grad deferrment, and failing to get into the Naval Reserves, took lemons and made lemonade. Everything about his service and after–including his staged combat footage reenactment, the fraudulent Winter Soldier testimony, the phony throwing of medals over the White House fence, the ridiculous (and illegal) meetings with North Vietnamese in Paris screams of cynical, self-serving gandstanding.</p>

110

<p>"have you ever piloted a fighter? Do you not hear the news reports of jet pilots and crew being killed on a sem-regular basis in accidents? "</p>

<p>I’m confused, are accidents where little asain guys in pajama’s use their AK-47s and shoot at you? Are you possibly confusing types of risk to try and prove an unproveable point? That GW was at as much risk serving in Georgia, than someone incountry (even if it was 120days)? Are you REALLY trying to imply that here? :slight_smile: Oh please say that you are… cause that’s how it reads…:slight_smile: </p>

<p>“Did you not read the report that Driver linked that said 6 of the pilots with whom the author served never made it to their 30th birthday because of crashes?”</p>

<p>And how many people didn’t make it to 30 incountry compared to living in Texas and Georgia at the same time? </p>

<p>Certainly the job that Bush signed up for was much more hazardous than the Navy job that Kerry signed up for."</p>

<p>I forgot nobody dies in the navy, accident or not, my bad. :)</p>

<p>“It was Kerry’s bad luck, not his bravery, that resulted in his assignment becoming very hazard”</p>

<p>So did his hazzard become greater or less than GW’s? It also was alot of regular kids bad luck not to have wealthy parents at the time. </p>

<p>In all fairness, you’re really starting to look bad here. This was probably your worst attempt to support an unsupportable position. </p>

<p>ANYBODY who got to stay home, beat the odds, period. </p>

<p>No matter how you try and define risk. You cannot make a villian out of Kerry and label Bush a hero during that time. In fact, via your points, make the arguement of considering Bush a coward for getting grounded, because he avoided that pilot’s risk you brought up to make your point with. You can’t die in a pilots accident if you aren’t flying. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>As I said when I jumped into this little fray, this was my brother’s opinion of the situation between GW and K. </p>

<p>So I guess since you got to hit me with the “have you ever flown?” hard question to make your point, I would guess he’d ask you some hard questions of he might ask you when you take this tactic.</p>

<p>Have you ever killed someone?
Have you ever picked up limbs of your comrades?
Have you been incountry?
Have you ever sat on a ridge surrounded by VC and nobody on the radio believes you?
Have you ever watched your friends die?
Have you ever had to crawl out from cover while under fire, to pull a wounded man back?</p>

<p>I expressed what mattered to him based on his experiences. His experiences are far more darker about war than if somebody got to fly a jet in Georgia. So if someone with that life experience supports the short time Kerry was there vs. the no time GW spent incountry…I tend to listen.</p>

111

<p>“even a LRRP would find it unusual to have a new man come in and earn the Silver and Bronze Stars plus three Purple Hearts in four months.”</p>

<p>I don’t think it would matter as much as being there vs. not being there. </p>

<p>Besides, please share…, what was USUAL about Vietnam?</p>

112

<p>

I would probably agree, were it not for what appears to be serial deceit in the interest of resume-padding. As I said, I think you can serve in a combat zone dishonorably, and you lose points for that.</p>

<p>I do a fair amount of military history research…I’m going to see if I can find another soldier/sailor/airman/marine who received the Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts in a three month period while sustaining only flesh wounds for which he lost no duty time. Or even while sustaining serious wounds. This is going to be tough. Oh, and one who ferried CIA and SF into Cambodia for the purpose of supplying the Khmer Rouge(!) He deserved to lose the presidency just for that idiocy.</p>

113

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<p>As long as we are allowed to do our own officiating about who is looking bad here, I declare that you are looking very bad indeed. Please go back and point out where I (or George Bush or anyone) is trying to make GWB a hero. In fact I have said it very explicitly:</p>

<p>"As indicated in my post above, no one tried to make Bush into a “hero”; "</p>

<p>Now, you are perilously close to losing your self-umpiring credentials. Don’t blow it by trying to persist along these lines.</p>

114

<p>Though there is, apparently, no sin in sincere, there is a grave dissimulation and sin in insincerity. Whether or not you believe the Bush administration lied after the election, it was pretty clear to all outside the hee-haw echo chamber that Kerry told a whopper while trying to get elected.</p>

<p>Not everyone will flash through one blog or web page after another to establish “the facts” and collate political data, but even most knuckleheads will intuitively know when they are being duped by a run-o-the-mill con artist. All the more so when the specific con involves the two-bit scam of making yourself into a big-shot, a smarty pants, or more to the point a lying social-climbing stiff: “You’re a hero?!”</p>

<p>They–we–see it all the time, day to day, big and small and, as has been said with the satisfaction that comes with experience, we won’t get fooled again:
“Fool me once, shame on…shame on you. Fool me…you can’t get fooled again.” See!</p>

<p>My momma don’t tolerate no lying.</p>

115

<p><a href=“http://hammeroftruth.com/images/articles/461-mission_accomplished.jpg[/url]”>http://hammeroftruth.com/images/articles/461-mission_accomplished.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>(1,000 words)</p>

116

<p>

You should listen, Opie, especially since it’s your brother, and for the same reason you should consider what the Swift Boat Vets say about Kerry’s service.</p>

<p>Please thank your brother for his service to our country.</p>

117

<p>Frankly, I thought Kerry looked ridiculous every time he trotted out his Vietnam hoohah, and it had nothing to do with the Swift Boat liars, or whether what he was saying matched them in affrontery.</p>

<p>The last straw was when, in Minneapolis, in September before the election, a 50-year-old woman got up and said, (I’m paraphrasing), “Senator Kerry, we thought we were middle class, but we are having a hard time of it. My husband, who is 56 lost his job, and no one will hire him, and we can’t afford health insurance. I have had a series of illnesses, but I have to hang on to my job for fear that we’ll be without. Because of my husband’s layoff, we can no longer afford my older son’s college tuition, and he has had to drop out and go to work…etc., etc. How can I know that you can really understand, really feel for someone like me?”</p>

<p>Kerry thought a minute, wiped his brow, and started, “When I was in Vietnam…” That was it. He hadn’t talked to a lower- or middle-class person one-on-one in 30 years, except to prosecute them. He hadn’t sponsored a single piece of legislation that addressed their needs in 20 years. He was out of touch, totally, with the people he was supposed to represent and defend. All he could remember that was relevant in any way were his lower class buddies from his Vietnam days.</p>

<p>He was (and is) a total loser, and worse, like so many of the Democrats that are trying to run away from their records as fast as they can, a dupe. And I bet he was, and is, totally sincere…and that just makes it worse.</p>

118

<p><a href=“http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/multimedia/foolbush.mov[/url]”>http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/multimedia/foolbush.mov&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>LOL! I just love watching this clip, by our well spoken president! Thanks for reminding me of that quote, FS! It’s a keeper!</p>

119

<p>And just to <em>really</em> prove how out of touch he is, he’s contemplating running again–as if <em>anyone</em> wants him (okay, maybe Teresa-- um, no, probably not). ;)</p>

<p>Pretty funny, AM (I did laugh out loud)!</p>

120

<p>mini,</p>

<p>“Kerry thought a minute, wiped his brow, and started, “When I was in Vietnam…” That was it. He hadn’t talked to a lower- or middle-class person one-on-one in 30 years, except to prosecute them. He hadn’t sponsored a single piece of legislation that addressed their needs in 20 years. He was out of touch, totally, with the people he was supposed to represent and defend. All he could remember that was relevant in any way were his lower class buddies from his Vietnam days”</p>

<p>Couldn’t this apply to just about everyone in politics today. How many from either party come from REAL scrapple backgrounds these days? I understand your point, but really, isn’t a matter of what rich man/woman you want to vote for? </p>

<p>The problem I’m having here and why I jumped in is alot of the finger pointing in this one really doesn’t look any better in the other direction. The put downs are coming from positions that really aren’t better. My rich guy understands me better than your rich guy??? Again, what are you saying that’s really a difference?</p>