<p>MiamiDAP - the overall theme of this thread is that if you dont make it to HYP… you end up homeless. So Bernie is right that he will go through his Ph.D. but will still end up homeless like the rest of us.</p>
<p>If you guys from Emory and Vandy are completely screwed what about us Rutgers guys who, gasp, majored in history and my wife who, double gasp, went to American International College and, triple gasp, majored in sociology and, quadruple gasp, went to graduate school in social work. Guarantee of starvation. Oh wait. She wound up as a 15-7 in the Federal government managing a $400,000,000 budget and supervising 10 professionals. Me I was only a 14-10. With our retirement jobs we will wind up with a combined six pensions plus IRAs, two condos, and a child with 12 years of private school and graduation from USC film school. Not too bad for non-ivy types. </p>
<p>On the other hand we didn’t get jobs in investment banking. All I can say about that is: Thank G–.</p>
<p>I have a daughter who’s a year out of Harvard and another one who’ll be a senior there this fall. Harvard’s been great for them - it’s fulfilled all their college hopes. Their brother will be a HS senior this fall and he’ll probably finish with similar grades to his sisters’ and a higher SAT. But I predict that he’ll wind up at Georgia Tech or UGA; maybe Vandy if things go right and it catches his fancy. The Ds wanted intellectually-motivated peers who’d share their passions for the humanities. S needs a top-class marching band. He’s a math and science guy who’s not merely ambivalent about prestige but a little uncomfortable with the idea. He’s bought into his Southern roots while his sisters desperately wanted to experience another part of the country. And he’s more aware than they were of saving the money that might otherwise go to out-of-state or private tuition.</p>
<p>He’ll do just fine. He’ll find his desired level of intellectual challenge and the marching band will continue to provide his social network. And 30 years from now, I wouldn’t be surprised if he and his math skills were out-earning his Harvard-degreed sisters.</p>
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<p>Another reason people who go to these schools make more money is that they disproportionately come from affluent, well-connected families. It’s their family connections at least as much as their college connections that give them a leg up professionally and financially, though for those who get into HYP-level schools without benefit of such family connections it’s probably beneficial to have lots of classmates who are well-connected.</p>
<p>Another reason is that the graduates of these schools disproportionately go to top medical, law, and business schools or get their Ph.D.s from the most prestigious graduate programs; but those opportunities are there for the top graduates of other schools as well. It’s just that the numbers favor the most selective schools because they have a higher percentage of the top students who are going to get the top MCAT, LSAT, GMAT, and GRE scores. In this context it’s not clear how much value is added by the undergraduate institutions themselves; to some extent they just operate as a crude sorting mechanism, picking off a lot of the top students.</p>
<p>Another reason the graduates of these schools do so well financially is that, broadly speaking, they’re just very smart people who on average and in the aggregate would be quite successful professionally and financially wherever they went to college. Again, it’s not clear it’s the college that makes them successful, so much as that by being successful the alums make the college look good.</p>
<p>tsdad: We were supposed to be collectively screwed for not going to HPY lol. You should really be living in a slum, and in the future, I’m supposed to build mine next to yours :). I’ll make sure to spray paint: “I shoulda went to HPY” on my box. Those from other non-top 10-15 schools should do the same. It’ll hyperinflate the HPY egos. Given our inevitable poverty, we need to find some way to contribute back to the world, even if it is simply making others feel better about themselves.
Miami: Chill, I’m just playing around.'</p>
<p>I agree w/bclintock: Most of the top schools (minus pre-dominantly engineering/STEM oriented ones) are not really that tough academically. All you need is the connections (whether you come in w/them or develop them while there), a good GPA (many will of course have this and we know why), and good grad. entrance scores which is often inevitable b/c most at these already mastered standardized testing upon admission into the UG program. Many kind of float through w/o actually having the “stellar and rigorous” education not really influence their post-graduation success (again, they can roll through without being challenged at all). Given this, the educational value may not be as significant as the other factors. It’s moreso of an “experience” where the role of academics (moreso than ECs and socialization. Many are just HSs on super steroids in a sense. A similar strategy works to get to the next level.) is sometimes questionable (however, I could admittedly see the engineering school’s style of academics as useful. Same for many LACs, even if they don’t grade as harsh. For example, how Williams has some ‘tutorial’ style courses. That seems like an excellent idea).</p>
<p>@Jengajenga LOL still an ivy.</p>
<p>@MiamiDAP Well if that’s the case I don’t care what the name of my UG says long as I can get a nice paying job and live a nice hopefully upper middle class lifestyle.</p>
<p>@Tsdad LOL at quadruple gasp. But yea the way some people on this forum sounded it was like if you didn’t have HYPS on your resume it was destined for the trash.</p>
<p>@bernie I’m definately not throwing shade at Vanderbilt. I would be deliriously happy at Vandy. It would be like my dream school. I was just scared it wasn’t “prestigious” enough but otherwise I have nothing but admiration and jealousy for the kids that go there. :)</p>
<p>@bclintlock Well in that case I don’t feel so bad LOL. I’m the daughter of a schoolteacher. Not much affluence or well connectedness happening here!</p>
<p>Becoming successful later is moreso up to you, not your school as explained many times in this thread. Their are many venues for the type of success you seek, it doesn’t have to be investment banking. Given the amount of pathways and venues to success, many schools will help you facilitate that, or not. Again, mainly you will assure your success, the education is often just an extra perk (in the context of knowledge for the sake of knowledge), and only if you take that aspect as serious as you do getting a good job. Realistically, most UGs will not give a significant amount of training/skills for most work/career environments so I really think many people at top institutions waste their money when they water down their coursework (having easier classes at the expense of having an awesome mentor/professor) all for the sake of a job. Why spend all of the money and not take advantage of the greater array of good classroom environments on top of the additional opportunities that helps to build the resume? Why not go to a generally less rigorous school, get a 4.0ish, and do many things outside of the classroom (b/c you have more time) that will perhaps even the playing field when it comes to jobs/grad. school opps. I think this is a viable path that wastes less money (seriously why pay 50k+ to give yourself a half-ass education, when you can do the same for 10-15k elsewhere, and w/less cherry-picking/trouble at some of the other schools).<br>
I say, worry about the education that you’re getting, earn the best grades possible, and then go for that nice job/opp. that you want. You “can” give yourself a high quality experience in terms of all three aspects outside of HPY just as you can go to HPY (and similar schools) and choose to half-ass it like those students that ask about grading at a top college and say: “I worked so hard in HS, and I really don’t want work as hard now that I’m in college. I wanna chill”, yet want to go to Yale and probably be a pre-med or something lol. Seems to be a disconnect to me that we expect to have it easier once we get to college. Many of us want a “break”, even those of us attending top schools. This makes a top school education useless IMO (as in placing job prospects far ahead of intellectual value and enlightenment. The two don’t seem to go hand in hand to many. Just wanna coast through and get a good job).</p>
<p>texaspg,
"MiamiDAP - the overall theme of this thread is that if you dont make it to HYP… you end up homeless. So Bernie is right that he will go through his Ph.D. but will still end up homeless like the rest of us. "</p>
<p>-OK. Many did not care to apply to HYP to begin with and happily going to their next destination (a.k.a Med. Schools, jobs, Grad. schools of all sorts, other selective or not so selective places) after graduating from STATE UGs, mixing up with all sorts of Ivy graduates and NOT feeling any inferior in comparison to them. Nothing to worry about, not that you do. People on CC put out staff more for entertaining than info purposes, at least, that is how it looks to me. So, here you go, get your free entertainment here.</p>
<p>dogx…,
“@MiamiDAP Well if that’s the case I don’t care what the name of my UG says long as I can get a nice paying job and live a nice hopefully upper middle class lifestyle.”</p>
<p>-Again, it will depend on YOU and YOU alone. Your UG whatever it is HYP or lowest ranked whatever will not make significant dent or bump in your fate. So, learn to be in charge, do not rely on people around you, not your UG, not your parents, not anybody else. You are the only one in charge of your own life, you can adjust to the worst situation and turn it around or you can let it crash you. And crashes will happen in any life, just keep on going, yep, get up and going and believe in yourself that you could.</p>
<p>“@Tsdad LOL at quadruple gasp. But yea the way some people on this forum sounded it was like if you didn’t have HYPS on your resume it was destined for the trash.”</p>
<p>The only “some people” who think that way are high schoolers who know nothing of the real world and how people are hired, compensated and advanced. They would probably be surprised to find out that some of their parents’ friends who have been successful did so in ways having little to do with elite school graduation.</p>
<p>^Only some “high schoolers”, many are much smarter than that.</p>
<p>Of course.</p>
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<p>I have met plenty of parents among those “some people.” 
In the cases I’m referrring to, it comes from mentally importing an entirely different educational and employment system, and overlaying it on American life. (If you don’t get into one of 3 Universities, you’re maybe a farmer or work on an assembly-line for the rest of your living days.)</p>
<p>The “some people” among highschoolers are often just parroting mindlessly what they hear at school from peers, because that’s sometimes what adolescents do.</p>
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<p>The fact that you persist in repeating the falsehood that I have said “Ivy’s” [sic] are “better for this” shows that you have a significant problem reading and comprehending my posts. Why is this? Is it because my point of view is so foreign to you that you simply reject it out of hand, without making any attempt to understand it?</p>
<p>There is an excellent Critic at Large article by Louis Menand entitled “What is College Good For?” in the latest New Yorker. It is probably available on their web site.</p>
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<p>That too! But I didn’t want to go there!</p>
<p>I want to say a few words about “smart”. On CC smart means getting high grades, but in real life smart can mean successfully working with people; doggedness; charisma; hiring the right people and then letting them do their job; knowing when to hold and when to fold. We could go one and on. These are not necessarily related to being smart in an academic sense. So by all means work to get into the best school you can, but always remember YOU, not your school, are your ticket to success. College is seminal, not terminal. </p>
<p>One final thought: never ever underestimate the value of being polite. It will get you far.</p>
<p>Bernie: My history majors at Rutgers and my graduate school, UNC-Chapel Hill, taught me life long skills: critical thinking; organizing material; research; and the ability to write a coherent statement taking a position and proving it. You don’t need to go to HYP to learn those things. These are skills learned in any college in the country. These are skills valued by employers.</p>
<p>Vanderbilt vs. HYPS or Vanderbilt vs. [any Ivy] is a completely useless discussion. There are always going to be differences between any given two colleges, and those differences may be worth debating if you have to choose between them, but fundamentally Vanderbilt and any of the Ivies or similar universities are 90%+ the same kind of institution. And notwithstanding that I, personally, am a Northeastern snob, and think much more of HYP than I do of Vanderbilt, neither I not anyone else has any strong factual basis for suggesting that a student who could get into Harvard or Yale will be risking his future in any way if he goes to Vanderbilt instead.</p>
<p>But one of the implications of that for the OP is that getting into Vanderbilt isn’t a whole lot easier than getting into Harvard or Yale. It’s great if you can do that, but if you can’t that doesn’t mean your life is over, either. You have to be prepared to take full advantage of whatever situation you find yourself in. For any number of reasons – one of which may be simple bad luck – you could wind up at a college that IS meaningfully “worse” than Vanderbilt or Harvard. Even there, however, you can make it just as good as Vanderbilt or Harvard for YOU, but it takes more thought and more work on your part.</p>
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<p>OT: JHS, have you ever read “Snobbery” by Joseph Epstein? You might enjoy it. He was my freshman seminar leader at NU, and you can tell he had a major chip on his shoulder that he was at NU and not what he called “Yarvton” (HYP).</p>
<p>I don’t get that, Pizzagirl. The guy was a lifelong resident of Chicago, and wasn’t even a full faculty member. He could have taken his “lecturer” act anywhere he wanted, or almost anywhere, but he would have had to leave Chicago to do it. The chip was probably an act. (Or maybe the real target of his resentment was his alma mater, which has a perfectly good location in Chicago, but which fairly uniquely didn’t hire famous writers without PhDs to teach undergraduates back then.)</p>
<p>It’s possible that the chip was an act, part of the persona. He was witty and clever to listen to at times, but I can’t say he was a stand-out lecturer / professor.</p>