<p>toneranger…I do believe that Honors Colleges can be very appropriate for very strong students indeed. I think those in such programs are usually on par with those at elite selective colleges. I don’t believe the entire population at the state U is like that (depends on the state U of course) and that is one way it differs from a highly selective colelge where the majority are like that. You can be challenged in either setting and get a very good education in either setting. The overall experience of the entire university will likely differ.</p>
<p>dstark, of course you are not against students being challenged!</p>
<p>I think the comparison with the high school population does make sense. In high school, my kids were fine as long as they were in the Honors classes with students like themselves. As soon as they had to take a class, such as Health, with the general HS population, they hated it as the other students were not motivated, didn’t do the work, didn’t participate, and so forth. Those students were not engaged in ECs and had very little in common with them in lifestyle with how they spent their time. </p>
<p>Now, at college, my kids go to school with students like the kids in their Honors classes in HS (actually, even a much stronger pool of kids) and love it. Outside the classroom, these other kids are heavily engaged in activities like my kids are doing. They share a common drive. If they went to UVM, they certainly would find other kids like them and classes that were challenging. But as a WHOLE, the experience would be different because a good many students at the college would not be like them, as well as the level of challenge across the board. It could be had there, no doubt. But it would not be the general norm. </p>
<p>I have a niece who went to PSU…very bright…got good grades. Her entire college experience (as well as that of her friends it seemed) was not like my own kids’ at all. My niece had WAY WAY more free time (she wasn’t in ECs), got to party a lot, and had much less schoolwork. I am sure that it is possible at PSU to have more challenges and to be engaged in EC pursuits, but not everyone is doing that. At Brown and at Tisch, they are ALL doing that. That is where the difference lies.</p>
<p>I don’t know that many people that have attended PSU, but what I see is that the individual has a lot more influence when it comes to her education at a college than high school.</p>
<p>Some of these schools have 10,000+ courses. Grad courses too.</p>
<p>If you go to Michigan as a math major you are required to take a couple of grad courses. You can take more grad courses too. And in those courses you might find students that graduated from Brown. :eek:.</p>
<p>I’m not denegrating Brown or any other school.
The rigor of Brown can be found at some state schools too, not just Michigan either.</p>
<p>That’s why it is about what kind of atmosphere you want.</p>
<p>Brown is pretty popular. 
Many prefer Brown.</p>
<p>Your daughter wanted rigor and a certain atmosphere. If she just wanted rigor she could have attended many more places than Brown.</p>
<p>“In all probability a bright and talented kid with good core values is going to do well wherever he/she decides to study.” </p>
<p>“I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. The main difference will be the experiences one would have in different college settings. But a good student is going to fare well no matter where he/she goes.”</p>
<p>I agree too. :)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I certainly agree that if my D JUST wanted rigor, she could have attended many more places than Brown. Brown doesn’t have a hold on rigor! In fact, she applied to many more places than Brown, where she felt the schools matched what she wanted. </p>
<p>She didin’t pick Brown just for the rigor. You can get rigor at schools like UMich…no question…I have a niece at UMich in fact. I have a child who applied there for musical theater too. </p>
<p>My D had several selection criteria. Level of challenge and rigor was ONE of them. She wanted a school where you could walk to things, perhaps more urban, or at least very different than the rural area she grew up in. She wanted a ski team (Brown has a varsity one…she loved it and it was a big part of her experience there). She wanted an architecture major in a liberal arts setting…our state U doesn’t have that. She wanted a medium sized school. She liked the open curriculum at Brown. She wanted diversity…Brown has way more than our state U does. </p>
<p>As it turned out, the kinds of students she went to school with at Brown are not as a WHOLE similar to the entire student body at our state U. Each and every student she has met there, from all over the country and the world, are high achievers doing some incredible things both in and out of the classroom. This could be had at many other universities. And at some less selective ones, there will be a subset of the population like this. I dont’ think the entire student body at much less selective colleges is like this, however. This type of thing stimulated my kid. </p>
<p>My other kid is at Tisch. The level of training in the BFA program there, the faculty and the talent of the other students is not on par with our state university in SUM (there is some overlap I am sure). It is not one of a kind, but there is a certain experience there that can be had at several places but not EVERY school. That’s the point.</p>
<p>“As it turned out, the kinds of students she went to school with at Brown are not as a WHOLE similar to the entire student body at our state U. Each and every student she has met there, from all over the country and the world, are high achievers doing some incredible things both in and out of the classroom. This could be had at many other universities. And at some less selective ones, there will be a subset of the population like this. I dont’ think the entire student body at much less selective colleges is like this, however. This type of thing stimulated my kid.”</p>
<p>I understand this. Like I said one of my best friend’s kids is at Brown. 2400 scorer too. ;)</p>
<p>.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>THIS is the blanket assumption I have an issue with–that you’re assuming students at state schools: a) party, b) have no/little work, and c) don’t do anything. That’s really offensive, imo.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>So kids at state schools want… environments where no one is involved and one was does any work? Ouch.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I have a hard tiime believing that ALL students at a school are doing anything. Not even ALL BYU students are Mormon!</p>
<p>I think it’s really hard to argue for the elite choice without, perhaps unintentionally, coming across as snooty to those who don’t (or can’t) make that choice. It was right for MY smart kid because he or she desires a challenging environment almost assumes that other environments that smart students select are not challenging.<br>
HYP and other tippy top schools present exciting opportunities for the lucky kids who get in. I can see why, for these kids, attending these colleges is ideal. And I can see why parents do what they can to support this choice. The hard work is paying off! But ideal and critical are two different things. If it’s critical, it means that kid will LIKELY NOT live up to his or her potential in a different environment (like a good state school). I guess I just don’t buy that as a general rule. Yes, the environment is different, maybe not as well suited, but as we said, a talented kid can usually do well almost anywhere. So no, IMO, it’s not an all or nothing situation, not CRITICAL. Not a CODE BLUE on ER. But maybe I expect more flexibility than most. Or maybe it’s just semantics…
Plus, let’s face it, there are lots of HYP rejects out there and many kids are choosing between a “lower” Ivy or even a notch below, and and a good state school option - maybe with an honors college and a free ride. If we encourage our kids to keep an open mind on this, I can’t see how this would an easy choice. But that’s just me.</p>
<p>question_quest…I think I’m running out of ways to say what I mean, LOL. </p>
<p>You are assuming that if I say that the type of student OVERALL and the learning environment OVERALL at a highly selective school may differ from a much less selective one, that I am implying that the students or level of challenge or learning atmosphere, or anything else is the inverse at the less selective school. I’m not saying what you have concluded. I’m saying there is OVERLAP. There are kids at much less selective schools who are very bright, driven, motivated, love challenge and rigor, and are heavily engaged in EC pursuits. I think there are a larger PROPORTION of such students at schools where it is much harder to be admitted. The conclusions and the assumptions that you posted in post #47 are not what I believe.</p>
<p>
At a school like Brown, if you want rigor, you don’t have to comb through the course offerings very much, because you will find the same kinds of students in all the courses. Whatever major you want to do, and whatever concentration you want, that rigor and challenge will be there. At a large university, this may not be the case. Of course, you will be able to find plenty of rigorous courses, but it may only be a subset of those 10,000 courses, and it may not be the particular courses or concentration areas you want. Of course, different people want different college experiences, and make tradeoffs of various kinds. This is just one of them.</p>
<p>Hunt, give me a break. Your post is ridiculous.</p>
<p>I think the young person in post #47 says it very well.</p>
<p>Hunt…good point…every course is rigorous with very motivated types and high level learners in it at Brown. I’ll go one step further…at Brown in particular, due to the open curriculum, everyone in the class WANTS to be there because every class is an option…there are no required classes other than fulfilling certain classes for your major and so one thing that is different at Brown is that students are happily in each class and participate a lot because they WANT that class as they could choose ANYTHING they want to take all 8 semesters and even have a shopping period to check all the classes out. Nobody is in the class because they HAVE to be there. That ALSO makes a difference. </p>
<p>Putting Brown aside, I’ll take my other kid’s program at Tisch. She has to go to school ALL day (not like BA students do) and is in school until 10 or 11 PM nightly and has required things she must be at for many hours on the weekends as well. She is booked solid day ,night and weekend. She’s in school right now…has been there since 9 AM and must stay there through 10 PM, and THEN has to do her homework, after traveling home to where she resides. This kind of schedule is not for ALL kids. Some kids are happy at schools where they go to class for three to four hours per day and some thrive on an insane schedule. Different types of programs. Different sorts of kids.</p>
<p>While my other D is in grad school now, she also has class ALL day long and stays there until at least 2 AM every night and the ENTIRE WEEKEND in class…her professors even come in on weekends to check on their work and so something is due daily. Again, not for all kinds of kids.</p>
<p>I see that this is just variation #1459 of “You can get just as good an education at a state university as you can at an Ivy.” While this is true, it simply isn’t the case that you can get the SAME education at those kinds of institutions. This is OK, because not everybody wants the same experience.</p>
<p>^^^Hunt, that is it in a nutshell, thanks. You CAN get an excellent education at a state school or less selective college. Most definitely! The experience will be different. And so that is where “fit” comes in. It isn’t about “better” or “best” schools, but about which experience fits a certain kind of student.</p>
<p>I know many kids who have attended both top private colleges and the flagship state university. I can detect no discernible difference in academic commitment, types of classes (except there are majors at the state U that would be difficult to find at most privates, such as a combined electrical engineering and oceanography major one kid is doing), or student “satisfaction” between students. One youngster who goes to a top Ivy feels at least one third of the students she knows are slackers who never have anything interesting to contribute and don’t appear to be very bright, one third are hooked rich kids who are smart, but are more concerned about fashion, their family, etc. than school, and about one third are really involved in academics. Now this is only one student who obviously isn’t in contact with all students, and who has her own biases, but I think that is the point, it is all very subjective. Nephew who graduated from a top Ivy said he felt no better educated or prepared for med school than his med school roommate from a state school. Friend’s D who graduated from a third tier undergrad school is completing her Ph.D. at a top private in the top ranked program in her area has won numerous awards and fellowships beating out her Ivy plus educated peers. I think good, interested students will do well wherever they go, and find students with similar interests. </p>
<p>S2 has never thought of himself as particularly smart even though his GPA in tough public school HS courses is decent, and his test scores, etc. good, until he attended an intensive inquiry-based summer course for college credit at a university known for its academic rigor. He was on the younger side of most of the students enrolled and most had attended other programs at other elite schools both in the US and abroad. To his amazement, he found he was just as capable and handled the intensive atmosphere as well or better as students with “better” private school preparation, grades and test scores. He did so well that the prof offered to write him a letter of recommendation for college. It changed him, he now feels he can handle anything. The moral, feeling smart , GPA, test scores, etc. are not necessarily good predictors of how well one will do, and attending a good public school (HS or college) can equally prepare one for challenges that lie ahead.</p>
<p>
This is not consistent with my observations. I wonder what that same youngster would have to say about her fellow students at a different kind of university?
I can understand the impulses behind this continuing argument. It is hard sometimes to justify the high cost of selective private schools, when you really can get an excellent education at many other schools of all types and sizes. But the experience is not the same, and it’s worth it to some people to pay more.</p>
<p>idad, I very much agree that smart high achievers come out of any kind of school and are well prepared for the next challenge. It really is the kid who makes it and not the school from where he/she came. My point earlier was that the learning environment and general atmosphere and overall student body differs from school setting to school setting. </p>
<p>But I very much agree with what you are saying. I can also relate. My kids went to rural public high schools. Only 2/3’s from our high school even go onto college. A very small handful go onto very selective colleges and the rest do not. I have a feeling that many CC parents would not choose to send their kids to my kids’ K-12 schools. But my kids were prepared for the challenges that lay ahead, as much as any prep school kid. My kids still got into their top choice colleges which were reaches with very low admit rates. Once they got to college, while many of their classmates had not attended a rural public school (many went to private day or boarding schools, including the top ones in the country, or in the case of my other D, many went to performing arts high schools and we have no private high schools or performing arts schools in our area). </p>
<p>How did my kids fare among these kids who went to vastly different types of schools than my kids had prior to college? Our HS hardly had any AP classes (but I can tell you, my kids’ classes were challenging using primary sources and involved a great deal of analytical writing). Well, my kid who went to an Ivy ended up with great grades at the Ivy and won the top award in her department at graduation. She got into many of the top grad programs in her field with very low admit rates. She fared just fine. My other kid goes to a top program in her field that is highly selective. She won one of the top scholarships there, was also selected upon entering into their Scholars program, has great grades, and has several leadership positions and has been cast as leads there (among a really competitive talent pool). Our high school doesn’t even have drama classes! So, ya know, I am a strong believer that you can go ANYWHERE and succeed and achieve. </p>
<p>Still, I believe each college environment differs and so finding a good fit, if you can, makes sense. And if my kids had to go to a less selective school, they’d have been fine. But it has been priceless to us that they found really good matches for themselves and they enjoyed the challenge level of the school…both academically and the peer group. There are some experiences at their schools that I don’t think could have been replicated at ALL schools.</p>
<p>“And if my kids had to go to a less selective school, they’d have been fine”. </p>
<p>Now, this seems to me like a very balanced and open view.
Sooz- your kids sound great and I can tell it’s important to you to do whatever you can to best support their dreams. And it’s refreshing to hear that you know that they would also do fine elsewhere (like many other smart and capable kids do).
IMO, those who go on about how AWFUL it would be if their kid had to go to a less selective school are trying a bit too hard to justify why they spent those extra $. And it the process, they (perhaps unintentionally) insult the smart capable kids who DO make this choice.</p>
<p>This is a great thread. I’m going to save it and pore over it for a while.</p>
<p>As some of you know, my second daughter is a pretty good candidate who is adamant that she will not reach. A lot of food for thought here. Thank you.</p>
<p>toneranger, it would not have been awful if my kids went to less selective schools. By the way, I don’t know that I spent MORE money sending them to more selective ones, given the FA they received. However, I will say without a doubt that the experiences they have had at their schools would not have been the same at just any school. I think these experiences have fit them better than what may have been at a less selective school. They may have succeeded no doubt no matter where they went to college (just as they did in HS) but the experiences would not have been as good of a fit or of the same kind.</p>