<p>I didn’t say the deserve whatever they want, I said they deserve respect, as in, respecting their decision to get sexual reassignment surgery.</p>
<p>I don’t get that their body functions normally? What don’t I get? </p>
<p>Simple terms: </p>
<p>Body functions normally, therefore there is nothing wrong with the body and it does not need to be “fixed”.</p>
<p>The person perceives their body as abnormal and undesirable although there is nothing abnormal with the body itself. </p>
<p>Since there is in fact no problem with the body, but only with the perception of the body, the perception is what is causing the issue for the transsexual person. </p>
<p>The issue is only allowed to continue and never addressed when a person undergoes the surgery, because the body, which is not flawed, is changed to conform with the flawed perception of the body.</p>
<p>Since the body is not flawed, correct treatment would involve correcting the flawed perception to match the body rather than changing the body to match the perception.</p>
<p>Which bathroom do trannies use?</p>
<p>Folks I give you another resident ■■■■■ (a REAL one) and very likely a sockpuppet for either cormy or antipacifist!</p>
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<p>Genetic “defects?” What “defect” would that be? You’ve been told before the likely causes of being LGBT and it sure as hell isn’t a genetic defect. You seem to have forgotten that little discussion - or took the wrong things from it.</p>
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<p>Now you’re just being offensive. So LGBT is something like any of those disorders in that it needs to have a cure found for it? That the people who go through it are significantly impaired by it? You have to remember, if it doesn’t stop a person from living a relatively normal life, it isn’t a mental disorder. Autism, DS, MD, all cause severe impairment in the ability to carry out a normal life. Being LGBT does not. The only disruption of normal life is when bigoted people make their lives and loves an issue. Arguably being Trans is a different hat than LGB because of lack of comfort of their own body - hence the need for transitioning. That’s the treatment. </p>
<p>Another thing - LGBT people are seen by a large swath of very prejudiced people as being morally repugnant – something you wouldn’t label someone with a mental disorder as, at least not anymore. You can’t label LGBTs as mentally disordered unless you’re prepared to make those unfortunate implications. Ipso facto, they’re not. Not morally repugnant either but try telling that to someone who’s homophobic and see how long they believe it. </p>
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<p>It kind of is, dude. They’re hardwired in their head to be the opposite gender - it would be unethical to force them to “get over it” and psychologically scarring to pull some kind of therapy where you forced them into gender typical behavior until their minds “corrected” themselves. Newsflash bubba, it doesn’t happen. It’s far easier to treat them with reassignment surgery.</p>
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<p>The problem is their biological gender, switching it puts it in line with their psychological gender identity, and that fixes the problem. OBVIOUSLY there are going to usually be co-morbid issues such as extreme depression that can’t be treated by the surgery alone, that’s what pre-op and post-op counseling is for.</p>
<p>You couldn’t possibly counter my previous post here Itachirumon.</p>
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<p>No, what you’re really saying is: “I don’t understand the difference between gender and sex. I don’t understand how someone’s gender cannot match his/her/hir sex. Because I don’t understand, because there is obviously a problem in there somewhere, and because the body functions normally, it must be the gender identity that is flawed. Hence, we should correct the gender identity.”</p>
<p>In short, your cis-privilege is showing. Please check it out at the door the next time you come in.</p>
<p>@ Yakyu Spirits: Could you not use the word “tranny”? Many trans* people have been ridiculed and bullied by people using that term before, so it would be good if we avoid any hurt feelings.</p>
<p>Also, whatever bathroom we feel most comfortable using.</p>
<p>ETA: I feel left out. Can I have a tag? :|</p>
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<p>Lol not at all. I challenge anyone to successfully challenge post number 22</p>
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<p>Which essentially means you support psychologically devistating reparative therapy treatments to force transpeople to conform to their biological gender. Way to go -claps- you just advocated something that would result in most transpeople commiting suicide. If you had even an ounce of Psychological training you’d know how riddiculous an idea you just proposed. You think their perception of their body is “flawed” - no, their minds are ordered in such a way that they’re actually mentally the opposite gender. That means their bodies are what are flawed. “Flawed” is a bad word to use here anyway because that’s honestly not what it is, it’s not about their bodies being imperfect, it’s that their bodies do not match who they are psychologically. You… aren’t a transperson, so you honestly can’t understand what it feels like, and you don’t appear to have much empathy so you can’t sympathize enough to understand what that might be like.</p>
<p>Edit: Nel hit the nail on the head - you don’t understand the difference between biological sex and gender identity. That’s at the root of your problem here.</p>
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<p>That is an emotionally loaded statement with no logic to back it. You aren’t very good at debating are you?</p>
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<p>So the brains of trans people are identical to those of the opposite sex? Give me proof. </p>
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<p>And it is impossible to use medical treatment and therapy to adjust the psychological issues?</p>
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<p>You didn’t answer my reply Itach. You are going to have to do better than say ^ In like manner, I could say you don’t know the difference between a physical and a mental defect.</p>
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<p>You’ve heard of reparative/ex-gay therapy right? You know what it entails, right? You know how psychologically damaging it is, right? It’s not a loaded statement, there would be a dramatic increase in transgendered suicides if we FORCED them to accept their biological gender. Transpeople already get more of the hate from bigots than LG or B do so they’re already at a much higher risk for suicide and self-harm than gays or lesbians. Adding psychological torture on top of that? Yeah… massive increase in suicide is probably the minimum you would get here.</p>
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<p>Did I say 100% identical? You can be close enough to be for all intents and purposes the opposite gender mentally. As for proof? I offer an article I posted here before from SCIAM, it’s about gays and lesbians but as I’m sure you can probably extrapolate, it would work with transgendered people too, just assume more of a change. </p>
<p>[Study</a> Says Brains of Gay Men and Women Are Similar: Scientific American](<a href=“http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=study-says-brains-of-gay]Study”>http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=study-says-brains-of-gay)</p>
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<p>Again, this would be tantamount to reparative therapy. Reparative Therapy does not work, **NO<a href=“and%20that’s%20not%20an%20exxageration,%20I%20mean%20NO”>/b</a> legitimate Psychological or health organization will advocate or allow their member Psychologists to practice reparative therapy. It’s been proven countless times to be psychologically destructive and will, at best, cause a great deal of emotional harm. At worst? Suicide. So yeah, no, it’s impossible to use “treatments” and “therapy” to “fix” a transgendered person’s gender identity.</p>
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<p>You added me to the tags, how cute. I answered your post sweety, you just didn’t notice it. Lemme lay it down for you reaaaaal simple:</p>
<p>Biological Sex: I think we can figure out what this means without too much cajoling, right? Do you have a hoo-hah or a dilly? That’s your biological sex.</p>
<p>Gender Identity: What you precieve your gender to be. You can be male, female, two-spirit, 3rd gender, there are honestly quite a few. </p>
<p>What you need to understand is that these don’t have to, and don’t always match.</p>
<p>Itachirumon, I get what you’re saying and I you make a great point, which I agree with, but your tactics for proving that point are so alienating and angry-sounding that you’re kind of not really getting anywhere. And people think you’re a ■■■■■. You might have more credibility if you just relax. Just saying.</p>
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<p>Still just empty emotions and fear mongering… No one said they would be forced to do anything. If they wanted treatment for their GID however, correction of the mental state seems necessary, not their body.</p>
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<p>That doesn’t prove your previous statement.</p>
<p>@RoxSox I’m used to debating at sites where you have to get up in someone’s face. Especially someone like USC/Antipacifist, because their bigotry is so obvious the only correction is to lay out scientific fact in a neat little row to invalidate their arguments.</p>
<p>Plus, Reparative Therapy is a major hotbutton issue for me, what USC is proposing - and I know you know this - is… I’m sorry, there’s not a lot of words for how… bafflingly offensive and awful it is. It’s so unscientific and against any rational sane form of psychology as to be infuriating… that anybody who made it to college could hold such… disgusting ideas, that they would find these ideas to be good. It’s very difficult when faced with that and with a refusal to see scientific evidence not to get… swiftly annoyed.</p>
<p>@USC</p>
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<p>So you’re still advocating for Reparative Therapy! That’s what that is! “correction of the mental state to ‘treat’ their GID” IS Reparative Therapy. And it doesn’t work! If they go into a treatment and the only treatment you’ll give is making them accept their biological gender, that is FORCING them. You’re not giving another option to get a surgery, you’re forcing them to accept the gender they are by screwing with them psychologically. You’re ignoring half the argument!!</p>
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<p>HOW?! How does that not prove my previous statement? The brains of gay men are structured more similarly to straight women and lesbians are structured more similarly to straight men! That not only shows that the structuring thing is possible but that it has an effect on sexual orientation! Granted, sexual orientation and gender identity aren’t the same thing but you can see the similarity right?</p>
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<p>Bingo! The problem is with the gender identity, not the biological sex!</p>
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<p>Nice try, but I never specified any specific method of treatment. I just said that since the gender identity is where the person is troubled, then the gender identity is what should be addressed if the problem is to be addressed.</p>
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<p>It falls under a banner of “treatments.” You’re advocating treatments that would make a MtF transperson accept their male body and vice versa! That’s reparative therapy in a nutshell. You are denying who they are inside and making them change it! That’s Reparative Therapy - for transgendered people! Therapy like that would force them to deny who they REALLY are, that’s what reparative therapy does. Don’t deny it, don’t backstep away from it, that’s exactly what you’re advocating. Treatments to make a transgendered individual accept their biological gender instead of the gender they really are inside. HOW is that different from forcing gays/lesbians to deny who they really love and be heterosexual?</p>
<p>My neighbor was crushed when he got treatment for schizophrenia. That treatment denied the voices in his head! The real him!</p>
<p>That is pretty much what your argument is like. A person has a mental disorder, but the disorder should not be corrected, because the disorder is the real person.</p>
<p>…But do either of you understand that NO ONE IS GOING TO WIN THIS? I agree with you Itach, but USC will not. Ever. Even if you get up in his face. You guys are operating on two completely different wavelengths.</p>
<p>If you actually enjoy doing this then more power to you. But neither of you are going to “win” at any point, no matter how much you mock each other or use caps or quote or whatever the hell you’re doing.</p>
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<p>But being LGBT isn’t a mental disorder! It technically hasn’t been since 1974! Transgendered individuals were only put in there because of transphobia, just like homophobia is what had the LGB in there! They’re removing it from the DSM-V, it’s NOT a mental disorder! And even if it WAS, the TREATMENT is counseling to help them come to accept their GENDER IDENTITY (not bio, gender) and to treat any comorbid issues such as depression that may arise when folks discriminate against someone for most of their life. And then if they want to proceed with the operation, hormone therapy and gender reassignment surgery. That’s literally what the DSM outlines as the treatment! Help them to accept being transgendered if they’re struggling, and then help them transition if they feel they want to.</p>
<p>@Rox - Usually I enjoy debating folks like this but, not so much when I have to bash my head against the wall to get a simple point across</p>