I'm watching the NBA Finals and I'm thinking

<p>IMHO, you can’t compare eras - though the SABR people try to do it for baseball - using fitness and size and what you see now versus what you think you saw then. Are players really bigger and faster? At some positions, the average height seems to have gone up, notably at the 2 and perhaps the 3, but overall centers are not taller and 4’s are iffy. Are they quicker? I don’t know how one could measure quickness versus time in a sprint. If there is a quickness advantage today, then it would likely be due to drugs, so if you adjust the past to allow for drugs, I’d bet they’re darn near even. The issue with quickness can easily be summarized by looking at March Madness and how some teams and players seem quick in one game and then look slow versus the next opponent and then you find that only a handful are actually quick enough to play in the NBA. We judge on relative scales, not absolute and objective scales. </p>

<p>The game also changes. When Russell and Chamberlain played, the game was less defense, more fast break, more shots, more scoring, with games often ending in the 120’s. That’s 10-20 more made possessions than today, which reflects not only defense but the slower pace of the game. In other words, though the game may look faster now, it’s also slower and it’s very difficult to figure out which is perceptive bias. </p>

<p>I barely remember Chamberlain, don’t remember Russell, remember all of Jordan, Magic, Larry, part of Dr. J, all of Kareem. None of the current players makes my top 5, with Shaq and Kobe close but not there. (My top 5, btw, is Russ, Chamberlain, Jordan, Magic and Kareem, with Oscar, Larry and Hakeem banging on the door.) </p>

<p>If you think about the difference in eras, take Kareem. He would still dominate with the hook - perhaps the greatest offensive weapon of an individual player ever - but he’d be doubled more when he put the ball down. But Kareem was also a terrific passer in high or low post, so with any ball movement and decent 3 point shooting, he’d kill you in more ways than he did when he was actually playing. (And Kareem had quicker feet and better footwork than any of the big men today, excluding guys like Garnett who are more 4’s than 5’s - and who are also HOF.) </p>

<p>Remember that Michael played when isolation was allowed. Every era has its quirks. While Larry played in the 3 pt era, the shot wasn’t part of the regular offense and was mostly taken at the end of quarters. In his biggest 3 shooting season, he took 237. By contrast, Turkoglu, a guy in the series now, took 415 and 376 the last two years. Things change.</p>

<p>I’m not that impressed with the teams playing in this final but that’s the game.</p>

<p>I think Bill Russel summarized the difference, when asked about how he in his prime would have compared with Shaq in Shaq’s prime:</p>

<p>“If we were playing with my rules, I’d win. If we were playing using his rules, he’d win” (or something to that effect.)</p>

<p>Lebron would foul out a lot more if there weren’t that circle around the basket where a defending player can’t draw an offensive foul.</p>

<p>I can see what you’re saying because last night’s game was just plain sloppy, not at all impressive. But I wasn’t a basketball watcher (much) in the '80s so I can’t really make a good comparison.</p>

<p>I think the 80 Lakers would do fine against Shaq and Lebron.</p>

<p>And anyway, Shaq and Lebron aren’t teammates anymore. I was talking today’s Lakers leave a lot to be desired.</p>

<p>MrPayne, I’m just comparing the top, top teams.</p>

<p>Wilt Chamberlain, in his prime, would be a huge star today. He was also a track star. If I remember right, he could run the 400 under 50 seconds. </p>

<p>That’s pretty good for a basketball player of his size.</p>

<p>He was also a pretty darn good Borscht Belt bellhop.</p>

<p>Wilt was a freak of nature. From wiki:</p>

<p>In his early years, Chamberlain was not interested in basketball, because he thought it was “a game for sissies”.[9] Instead, he was an avid track and field athlete: as a youth, he high jumped 6 feet, 6 inches, ran the 440 yards in 49.0 seconds and the 880 yards in 1:58.3, put the shot 53 feet, 4 inches, and broad jumped 22 feet.[10] </p>

<p>On the other hand, Bill Russell played at 220 pounds. That’s 65 pounds lighter than Andrew Bynum.</p>

<p>My DH loves to hate the Lakers. The big difference I see between now and then are the disgusting tatoos on today’s players. If they could just imagine themselves 30-40 yrs from now…</p>

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I think you do the current top teams a disservice by not recognizing the much higher level of play by the lower ranked teams. Kareem existed in an era where he could always count on a large height advantage (okay, maybe not against Wilt). Not anymore. Duncan, Gasol, Howard are slightly taller than their competition, but nowhere in the realm of Kareem. Really, Yao is the only person comparable to Kareem in terms of relative height to the opposition.</p>

<p>I’m not trying to do a disservice to anybody except maybe the two teams in the final. :)</p>

<p>I’m not saying as a whole the teams today aren’t better than the teams in the 90’s 80’s or earlier.</p>

<p>I’m saying what I’m saying. I’ll take the 80’s Lakers over these Lakers.</p>

<p>I think Howard and Duncan are great players.</p>

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I think all of our memories are biased towards remembering ‘scoring’. People simply don’t remember all the shots <em>not</em> taken. I think it’s ridiculous to think that the Laker’s of old would be able to score with the proclivity as they did then. The defenses now are just simply tougher. The amount of good looks at the basket is lower now.</p>

<p>Maybe…</p>

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<p>Aaah, the Showtime Lakers…what fun they were to watch. There are just some ways of playing a game that I enjoy more than others. </p>

<p>For example, I love baseball circa 1975.</p>

<p>I’d take the showtime lakers anytime over this years lakers… Cooper could shut down Kobe and then what would the Lakers do?</p>

<p>The original post is terrible. Both of these teams (Lakers and Magic) would seep any team pre-Jordan.</p>

<p>“Why does the NBA get a free pass on steroids? Do they have a meaningful testing program? Whenever I see Dwight Howard and Lebron James that’s all I see - steroids… whether they actually use or not.”</p>

<p>I think the main thing is that steroids wouldn’t really help you in basketball. Lebron is somewhat fishy but most players look normal (muscle wise). In addition, basketball is all about quickness and foot speed. Steroids decrease both of these and therefore are somewhat negative. I’m sure some players use it but the percentage is extremely low compared to sports like football and baseball where strength is the number one attribute.</p>

<p>^That’s not how steroids work. In any case, Lebron is basically a tight-end playing basketball.</p>

<p>I just saw highlights of Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Worthy on youtube.</p>

<p>They still look good compared to today’s players to me.</p>

<p>Bob Hayes played professional football in the 60’s and ran the 100 yard dash in 9.1 seconds.</p>

<p>Who is faster 40 something years later?</p>

<p>What? John Elway wouldn’t have a great arm anymore compared to today’s quarterbacks?</p>

<p>Magic wasn’t a 6’9" point guard? Some of his contemporaries like John Stockton just quit playing. </p>

<p>Larry Bird can’t shoot? He wouldn’t see the court well anymore?</p>

<p>These guys didn’t play in the black and white days.</p>

<p>Hell. Did Brett Favre play in the 80’s?</p>

<p>How many people shoot a puck as fast as Bobby Hull or skate as fast as Bobby Orr?</p>

<p>Steroids doesn’t make you faster?</p>

<p>Simply not true that centers are on average taller. Artis Gilmore, Bob Lanier, a host of others were big men, 6’11" to 7’2". There is more a shortage of big men now and a bunch of 4’s who have limited offensive skills.</p>

<p>There’s no doubt that Russell, even Chamberlain, would have been more muscular today and would weigh more.</p>

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It’s a highlight video…</p>

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Sample size: 1.</p>

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I’m not sure what your point is. Do you think average arm strength in the NFL today is the same as it was in 1998? I don’t. I think we’ve will see a steady increase in QB size and strength over the last 10 years. If you disagree with this statement, when do you think size/strength <em>stopped</em> increasing in professional athletics?</p>

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I’m not sure what this means. Magic was a 6’9" point guard, yes. That was atypical then and it’s atypical now.</p>

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I don’t think average shooting skill is any different now that it was back then. I don’t think any of the skills now are different than they were back then. I think the size/strength is different. Specifically in the NBA where the talent pool is hugely expanded.</p>

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Was there any time in the 1980’s where a team had 3 legit 7 footers on a team?</p>