And a wide(r) distribution of data points that can inform, e.g. team captain on a varsity sport. But then still further, were they named captain by the coach? Voted by teammates? I think those distinctions may be interesting in an admissions context.
LoRs are just another advantage for students who attend well resourced high schools. Most HS counselors donât know their students well. Some might use brag sheets to help inform a letter, but many, maybe most, just fill out the Naviance or Scoir forms and donât write anything approaching an LoR.
Average student to counselor ratio in the US is somewhere in the 450:1 range. Most counselors have social emotional counseling responsibilities which take precedence over college counselingâŠand many of these counselors have never been trained in college counseling.
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LoRs also have the effect of injecting factors out of the applicantâs control into the application. Examples would be if the âbestâ recommender is a poor LoR writer (not known in advance ), or the applicant is shut out due to LoR rationing.
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100%
ANother example of the advantage for students who attend well resourced high schools.
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Same. I was actually surprised to find out in certain circles, there is SOOOOOO much attention paid to things like how many APs you took, your exact GPA, your exact class ranking, and so on, but then when it came to recommendations, they were sort of treated as an afterthought. Like, I am about to apply, who should I ask, was the extent of it for a lot of people. Whereas I would have suggested if they were going to spend years building their case for college, high on their list would be making sure to build the sort of teacher relationships, and reputation as a participant in classes, that will maximize teacher recommendations.
Not least because the faculty are very important stakeholders in most selective colleges, and in fact Yale explained there is usually a faculty representative on their admissions committees. So I think it is safe to assume those faculty representatives, or other officers acting on their behalf, very much want assurances about whether the college is admitting the sorts of students they enjoy having.
Again, to circle back to the OPâs question, a high standardized test score may well help you get to the point where a committee is assessing questions like that. But it makes perfect sense that once the faculty, or their agents in the process, know you have passed that sort of baseline scrutiny, they will then focus on things like recommendations, which inform them about all the other sorts of things these tests cannot address.
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I agree with this. Unless your kid is involved with a clearly exceptional EC (Regeneron winner, Math Olympiad medalist, national profile something or other etc) it is hard to know how their ECs will be evaluated.
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I think one of my Ds best essays was the leadership/community one. She was (voted) captain of a nationally competitive team which had no cuts and, truth be told, she was terrible at it. She always showed up, worked very hard, and was very supportive of her teammates.
Interestingly, this appeared to be one of sorts of topics our resident Yale interviewer is instructed to explore, what these activities listed on paper really meant. I also understand that counselors are expected to help colleges understand such things when necessary, including possibly when contacted.
So as usual, there is potentially more going on here than colleges just accepting activities lists at face value, at least when it might actually matter to them. Which again makes sense given the lack of standardization.
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That is obviously true, but at a certain pointâwhat isnât? These high schools donât tend to miss a trick when it comes to helping kids get admitted to college, including because that is de facto a large part of why parents and such support their continued existence. Not all of why, but generally speaking being good for college admissions is a hard expectation.
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Wasnât the question about testing??
People tend to think of ECs as an objective measure/accomplishment. My theory is that, with few exceptions, colleges are much more interested in seeing commitment, consistency, true interest and engagement than they care about the specifics and/or perceived prestige of the EC.
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Indeed it was. Seems to me though that a discussion of the importance of standardized testing can be made in the context of its relative importance to the other aspects of an application.
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Interestingly, I think there is a certain sort of potential applicant who is drawn to such ECs precisely because the standards for a very strong outcome are relatively ascertainable. And that is fine if those are actually activities you love, but then I think enough other people pile into those activities for that reason, and you end up facing a lot of competition to distinguish yourself. And some people will then distinguish themselves, but it is a hard path.
Other ECs cannot be like that because there is no way to turn them into a competition with clear winners. But that doesnât mean anything goes, it just means it is less ascertainable who will stand out. Nonetheless, I do wonder if some of those would be easier paths for many kids, but they end up avoiding them because of that lack of ascertainable indicators of competitive success.
But then someone starts talking about âpassion projectsâ and a bunch of kids start asking people to tell them what would be a good passion project for college admissions, which is kinda missing the whole point.
I guess what I am saying is it is kinda easy to diagnose some of the problems, but I am sympathetic to why so many kids end up on these paths anyway. It takes some real courage to actually do what these colleges say you should do, because the truth is they are not offering you any guarantee it will actually work in your case.
But of course if you have high numbers, some great college will want you anyway, and you will also have had a good childhood . . . but again, it asking a lot out of these kids to resist the peer pressure, possibly resist the family pressure, and just do your thing and be confident it will all work out in some way.
The specific question is, âHow much of a difference is this score going to make in my application, since most schools are moving away from standardized testing?â
I think a meaningful answer to that question naturally involves discussing the overall process, and some discussion of how other factors are evaluated as part of that process, because that is necessary to understand what difference a score may or may not make.
That said, I agree we should make a point of circling back to that question.
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In support of your view, we could note a lot of AOs say something just like that!
But I also think a lot of people seem to just forget that these colleges are not in fact handing out gold stars for high school achievement, they are actually trying to continually renew a vibrant college community. So, every year, students who did arts, or journalism, or club sports, or debate, or on and on are graduating, and they need to be replaced. In fact, often those graduating seniors ended up taking on important leadership positions, and while they will immediately be replaced mostly by rising juniors and such, eventually those people also need to be replaced by new students.
Once you really think about what it takes to accomplish that task, I think it becomes clear why the things you listed are so important to them. If you were just checking a box to get admitted to college, will you really keep it up in college? Will you be a fun and inspiring co-participant in college activities, and ultimately a leader in your time?
Again there are many different activities, and so there are many different ways of answering these questions positively. But I really think some people would benefit from thinking like an AO who actually needs to figure out how to find great students who will ALSO keep all these activities rolling.
Which again, to circle back, is not something a high test score can address. Indeed, it isnât in the same category at all. So while it has its place, at least for the most selective colleges, it wonât likely be a consideration when they are trying to figure out which applicants will be the best bets to satisfy this sort of mandate.
To answer the OPâs question - a strong standardized test score can be a good way to further confirm academic accomplishment in a time of rampant grade inflation. On its own, however, it isnât going to get you over the finish line. And it wonât make up for sub-par grades or a lack of academic rigor. An excellent test score/high gpa/strong rigor gets you over the first hurdle, but there are many more before an applicant makes it to the âyesâ pile.
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I go to a rigorous top performing public school, and take classes that are notoriously hard to get As in.
I still have almost perfect grades, with only a few B+s here and there. I also got a 35 on the ACT. Do you think this will raise a red flag for schools? I take all APs and generally do well. Just a few really hard ones where I did just ok. Iâm still in the top decile of my grade, but we donât rank.
I definitely donât think there will be a red flag, as what you described is pretty normal for kids who go to rigorous schools.
Of course the important thing to keep in mind is highly selective colleges typically put a lot of work into understanding your grades in context. So if it is normal for high test kids in your school to get some B+s, then probably in some form they will know that, and they will take that into account.
I think the worry they have is more about the exact opposite sort of secondary school, where lots of kids are getting all As, particularly post-COVID. Thatâs the scenario in which they may be most interested in seeing a high test score too, because that may provide them with some reassurance that particular applicantâs grades were not just because of lax grading standards.
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It sounds like you have a very good gpa and excellent rigor along with a very strong ACT score. I doubt a couple of âB+â grades will raise any red flags. Unfortunately, many wonderful students are turned away from high reach schools so I donât know how you will fare, but your application sounds very strong from an academic perspective. You might ask your GC how kids with similar stats do in terms of college admission - they are likely to have an idea (with the caveat that each applicant is different and unique).
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Yeah. My GC gave me some numbers and most of the kids from my school that got into my reaches had a similar GPA to me.
I just hear a lot of people say that you need a 4.0 to get into selective schools. My school doesnât have A+, so getting a 4.0 is impossible unless you manage to not get a single A- throughout all of high school. I think thatâs also why my GPA seems lower compared to the averages at these schools. But we have the naviance data for our school and my GC says that Iâm perfectly fine. Iâm not too concernedâŠ.just concerned that itâs a crapshoot for anyone.
Also, an A in my school is 95-100. In most schools, an A is a 93-96.