In case we've forgotten Iraq

bandit_TX · October 14, 2005, 10:47pm

You still can’t grasp the fact that this enemy isn’t bounded by arbitrary lines drawn on a map.

newmassdad · October 14, 2005, 11:07pm

FF, what planet are you on? The same as me? I’m having doubts.

Did I ever say anything about GWB and speeches in front of veterans? Did I ever say veterans were anti-war? Give me a break. And tone down the rhetoric while you are at it.

fundingfather · October 15, 2005, 10:49am

Tone down the rhetoric? That is quite an unbelievable request given your out of the blue insinuations made in #10 and #12.

Did you ever say that veterens were anti-war? Well, what did you mean by this: “Compared to historic trends, those closest to the action, army vets, ARE voting in record numbers, to get out.”

Perhaps we are not both on the same planet. I guess the news of terrorists attacks against the WTC before 9/11 never reached your planet.

Over and out from planet Earth.

socal05 · October 15, 2005, 1:26pm

Today the people of Iraq voted on their draft constitution. Although the insurgents threatened violence, there were few incidents. Voter turnout was good including among the Sunnis. Regardless of the outcome, this is good news for the people of Iraq.

TheDad · October 15, 2005, 1:36pm

SoCal05, I’ll call you on that. From “mission accomplished” to “dead enders” to “last throes,” the Bush administration claims we’ve turned the corner so many times that one can only conclude that they’re going around in circles. Each political milestone has been hailed as the turning point. Feh.

I’ll make book with you: the situation will be as bad, if not worse, next year and you and other gullible & credulous folk like FF will be finding new excuses.

FF, 9/11 as the justification for invading Iraq is akin to the Emperor’s new clothes…ain’t nothing there. But I understand why you cling to that because if that goes, the whole wall caves in.

But fighting this kind of stupidity has become easier over the past few months. Even Republican support for Bush has fallen to under 80 percent, with Independents around to 25 percent and Democrats around 11 percent. More people belive in the Tooth Fairy than they do in Bush’s Iraq policy and for good reason…the Tooth Fairy makes more sense.

But just keep talking among yourselves. You can reassure each other until this Republican administration is the equivalent of grease spot in the road. With any luck, a city councilwoman from Indiana will become the most credible Republican spokesperson on any subject…they’re 80 percent there already.

socal05 · October 15, 2005, 2:28pm

You have no idea where I stand on the war. How arrogant of you. I was actually not in favor of us going in there. However it is important to finish the job. The insurgents are counting on us to fail and run away.

barrons · October 15, 2005, 2:33pm

Whatever the original reasons were to go into Iraq it has become clear this is as good a place as any to stop Muslim extremists from grabbing power in the middle east.

TheDad · October 15, 2005, 3:20pm

“Finishing the job” requires a defined achievable end state. There isn’t one. Btw, when slinging around “arrogance,” start with this adminstration’s planning and execution. Then we can talk.

Barrons, you’re getting close: having an Iraqi government we don’t dislike too much and that doesn’t provide a haven for too many Islamists is looking like the lifeboat. But we’ve created a worse situation vis a vis Islamists than the murderous dictatorship we set out to “cure.”

bandit_TX · October 15, 2005, 4:10pm

Fortunately TD, we can have our own opinions. We don’t have to accept yours. Maybe the Iraqis will soon have the same privilege.

weenie · October 15, 2005, 4:25pm

bandit:

Would you advocate, as our ongoing foreign policy, spreading democracy (through military force, if need be) to all non-democratic, tyranical governments in the world? What about the rest of the middle east? North Korea? China? Too-numerous-to-list nations of Africa? Why just Iraq?

Also, can you explain why you think this statement could be true:

socal05 · October 15, 2005, 4:58pm

Things were bad in Iraq before and they are bad now, but the Iraqi people have something now they never had living under the murderous tyrant Saddam. They have hope.

newmassdad · October 15, 2005, 6:07pm

“They have hope.”

Yea, they hope:

<ul>
<li>that soon, they’ll have electric power as often as they did before we invaded.</li>
<li>that soon, they’ll be able to get medical care like before we invaded.</li>
<li>that soon, they’ll be able to work again. Of course, if they do, it will be for a foreign boss, as the US allowed (some would say forced) the sale of most business assets in Iraq to foreign companies.</li>
<li>that soon, they’ll be able to cross the street without fear of attack, like before the war.</li>
<li>that soon, they’ll be able to vote for candidates of their choice, on issues of their choosing. I bet they’re tired of only voting on issues and candidates chosen by the US!</li>
<li>that someday far away, they’ll be able to live without domination by the mullas, like they did before the US invasion.</li>
</ul>

Yes, they DO have a lot to hope for!

usna_reject · October 15, 2005, 7:42pm

I’m sure things will get better someday but there is only so much the US can do. It’s like that you can lead a horse to water saying.

bandit_TX · October 15, 2005, 7:44pm

And they won’t join a half a million of there fellow citizens in a hole in the ground after the largest mass murder in history.

itstoomuch · October 15, 2005, 7:45pm

Saw an excerpt of GWB yesterday making comparison of VN War to Iraq War. Just further his expectations that Americans are just as smart as he is.

mini · October 15, 2005, 8:21pm

Hey, guys, let’s hope that the vote in Iraq is good, so that Sistani can finally begin the business of kicking the U.S. out so we can declare victory, and Iraq can join Iran as one of our friends ;)

(as for the couple of hundred thousand who couldn’t find a polling place, well, their votes wouldn’t have counted anyway, so it really doesn’t matter.)

“And they won’t join a half a million of there fellow citizens in a hole in the ground after the largest mass murder in history…”

You can say that again, but that was just the children. A little overexaggerated, but I don’t think that Madeleine Albright will object.

alongfortheride · October 15, 2005, 8:32pm

dak, I’m so sorry to hear of your college chum’s loss. It does hit so close to home. Out next door neighbors godson just lost both legs in a mortar attack. Another friend’s son-in-law is currently in Iraq. One of my son’s best friends from high school just deployed to the Persian Gulf on a carrier. The absolute worst and scariest for me is that my daughter’s boyfriend will likely deploy to Afghanistan or Iraq early next year. He is her kindred spirit, and I fear for her as much as I do for him. His mother is a dear friend of mine as well.

We can debate the merits of the war from our armchairs, but there is a very real human cost, and I think we owe it to those who paid the price to honor their service - even if we find the current administration’s policy flawed and feel we were lied to. My heart goes out to those families affected. I can’t imagine the horrible heart-stopping hours and days after you find out that soldiers from your loved one’s unit have died and no names have been released, but I will most likely know by this time next year.

I think many Americans support the war on terror as they thought it applied after 9-11. It’s just too bad that we got side-tracked.

newmassdad · October 17, 2005, 10:22am

Why are some of us concerned about the current national leadership? From an email I received today. Food for thought:

This is an eye-opener

Democrats:

<ul>
<li>Richard Gephardt: Air National Guard, 1965-71. </li>
<li>David Bonior: Staff Sgt., Air Force 1968-72. </li>
<li>Tom Daschle: 1st Lt., Air Force SAC 1969-72. </li>
<li>Al Gore: enlisted Aug. 1969; sent to Vietnam Jan. 1971 as an army journalist in 20th Engineer Brigade. </li>
<li>Bob Kerrey: Lt. j.g. Navy 1966-69; Medal of Honor, Vietnam. </li>
<li>Daniel Inouye: Army 1943-47; Medal of Honor, WWII. </li>
<li>John Kerry: Lt., Navy 1966-70; Silver Star, Bronze Star with Combat V, Purple Hearts. </li>
<li>Charles Rangel: Staff Sgt., Army 1948-52; Bronze Star, Korea. </li>
<li>Max Cleland: Captain, Army 1965-68; Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam. Paraplegic from war injuries. Served in Congress. </li>
<li>Ted Kennedy: Army, 1951-53. </li>
<li>Tom Harkin: Lt., Navy, 1962-67; Naval R! eserve, 1968-74. </li>
<li>Jack Reed: Army Ranger, 1971-1979; Captain, Army Reserve 1979-91. </li>
<li>Fritz Hollings: Army officer in WWII; Bronze Star and seven campaign ribbons. </li>
<li>Leonard Boswell: Lt. Col., Army 1956-76; Vietnam, DFCs, Bronze Star and Soldier’s Medal. </li>
<li>Pete Peterson: Air Force Captain, POW. Purple Heart, Silver Star and Legion of Merit. </li>
<li>Mike Thompson: Staff sergeant, 173rd Airborne, Purple Heart. </li>
<li>Bill McBride: Candidate for Fla. Governor. Marine in Vietnam; Bronze Star with Combat V. </li>
<li>Gray Davis: Army Captain in Vietnam, Bronze Star. </li>
<li>Pete Stark: Air Force 1955-57 </li>
<li>Chuck Robb: Vietnam </li>
<li>Howell Heflin: Silver Star </li>
<li>George McGovern: Silver Star & DFC during WWII. </li>
<li>Bill Clinton: Did not serve. Student deferments. Entered draft but </li>
</ul>

received #! 311.

<ul>
<li>Jimmy Carter: Seven years in the Navy. </li>
</ul>

; * Walter Mondale: Army 1951-1953

<ul>
<li>John Glenn: WWII and Korea; six DFCs and AirMedal with 18 Clusters. </li>
<li>Tom Lantos: Served in Hungarian underground in WWII. Saved by Raoul Wallenberg. </li>
</ul>

Republicans – and these are the guys sending people to war:

<ul>
<li>Dick Cheney: did not serve. Several deferments, the last by marriage. </li>
<li>Dennis Hastert: did not serve. </li>
<li>Tom Delay: did not serve. </li>
<li>Roy Blunt: did not serve. </li>
<li>Bill Frist: did not serve. </li>
<li>Mitch McConnell: did not serve. </li>
<li>Rick Santorum: did not serve. </li>
<li>Trent Lott: did not serve. </li>
<li>John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business. </li>
<li>Jeb Bush: did not serve. </li>
<li>Karl Rove: did not serve. </li>
<li>Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. “Bad knee.” The man who attacked Max Cleland’s patriotism. </li>
<li>Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve. </li>
<li>Vin Weber: did not serve. </li>
<li>Richard Perle: did not serve. </li>
<li>Douglas Feith: did not serve. </li>
<li>Eliot Abrams: did not serve. </li>
<li>Richard Shelby: did not serve. </li>
<li>Jon! Kyl: did not serve. </li>
<li>Tim Hutchison: did not serve. </li>
<li>Christopher Cox: did not serve. </li>
<li>Newt Gingrich: did not serve. </li>
<li>Don Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as flight instructor. </li>
<li>George W. Bush: failed to complete his six-year National Guard; got assigned to Alabama so he could campaign for family friend running for U.S. Senate; failed to show up for required medical exam, disappeared from duty. </li>
<li>Ronald Reagan: due to poor eyesight, served in a non- combat role making movies. </li>
<li>B-1 Bob Dornan: Consciously enlisted after fighting was over in! Korea. </li>
<li>Phil Gramm: did not serve. </li>
<li>John McCain: Vietnam POW, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross. </li>
<li>Dana Rohrabacher: did not serve. </li>
<li>John M. McHugh: did not serve. </li>
<li>JC Watts: did not serve. </li>
<li>Jack Kemp: did not serve. "Knee problem, " although continued in NFL for 8 years as quarterback. </li>
<li>Dan Quayle: Journalism unit of the Indiana National Guard. </li>
<li>Rudy Giuliani: did not serve. </li>
<li>George Pataki: did not serve. </li>
<li>Spencer Abraham: did not serve. </li>
<li>John Engler: did not serve. </li>
<li>Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer. </li>
<li>Arnold Schwarzenegger: AWOL from Austrian army base. </li>
</ul>

Pundits & Preachers

<ul>
<li>Sean Hannity: did not serve. </li>
<li>Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a ‘pilonidal cyst.’) </li>
<li>Bill O’Reilly: did not serve.

<ul>
<li>Michael Savage: did not serve. </li>
</ul></li>
<li>George Will: did not serve. </li>
<li>Chris Matthews: did not serve. </li>
<li>Paul Gigot: did not serve. </li>
<li>Bill Bennett: did not serve. </li>
<li>Pat Buchanan: did not serve. </li>
<li>John Wayne: did not serve. </li>
<li>Bill Kristol: did not serve. </li>
<li>Kenneth Starr: did not serve. </li>
<li>Antonin Scalia: did not serve. </li>
<li>Clarence Thomas: did not serve. </li>
<li>Ralph Reed: did not serve. </li>
<li>Michael Medved: did not serve. </li>
<li>Charlie Daniels: did not serve. </li>
<li>Ted Nugent: did not serve. (He only shoots at things that don’t shoot back.)</li>
</ul>

fundingfather · October 17, 2005, 10:43am

And your point would be? Oh, I get it, if you don’t have a life and want to waste it taking political pot shots and creating divisiveness you can create a list that proves any point that you want to make. No Bush 41? No Bob Dole? No Colin Powell? No Jerry Ford? No Bill Clinton? No Edwards? John Wayne but none of the of the Hollywood left? Come on NMD, you can do better than spread this sort of stuff.

weenie · October 17, 2005, 10:58am

bandit:
Are you there? Still waiting to hear your response, if you are so inclined…

In case we've forgotten Iraq

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