<p>While things have changed in the last few years, several years before and especially during my college years, the East Asian students with the exception of those from the ROC(Taiwan)* attended US colleges because:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>They failed to score high enough on their home country’s college entrance exam and their family had the money and willingness to pay for prestige. Noticed their grad student compatriots at US elite universities had some contempt for them because they were viewed as academic laggards who would probably not have scored high enough for even a third tier college back home. Heck, even one Mainland Prof/visiting scholar who did her PhD at an elite US U after doing undergrad at a top college in her home country openly stated that very sentiment to me and other friends back in the early '00s. </p></li>
<li><p>The family/student were fed up with the cutthroat competitive nature of the academic culture/national college exam environment and wanted something “more humane”. This was the stated reason for some Japanese students I met during my college years…including one who turned down admission to a couple of Top 4 Japanese colleges to attend a T-20 LAC. There was also the aspect that in the Japanese academic environment that once one is admitted to college…the experience is very anti-climactic as the academic work/class attendance requirements even at the top colleges are much more lax than US colleges. The mentality seems to be that if you’re smart enough to score high enough to gain admission to UTokyo, Kyoto, Waseda/Keio, etc…they deserve a break. A reason why there’s a culture of taking weeks long road trips during the school year and according to friends who attended the listed colleges, unless there’s an exam day…a Prof would be lucky to have 25% of the registered students show up for class. </p></li>
</ol>
<ul>
<li>The ROC(Taiwan) is the only East Asian country where going to a topflight US college is regarded on par/better than attending the top colleges in the home country. A graduate of a US college for undergrad will be prized there whereas they may be regarded with some disdain/skepticism in other countries…especially Japan.</li>
</ul>
<p>What I was hoping this would address is the misconception that American students actually do pretty well on the PISA, contrary to common misconception. </p>
<p>Is it really “the best” Chinese students going to the US universities, or the slightly less than “the best” (i.e. the ones who did not do well enough on the gaokao to get into a Chinese university that they want to attend) from wealthy or well connected families?</p>
<p>In HI, sadly, many (if not most) of the kids of the public school teachers AND elected leaders and others send their kids to PRIVATE schools as early as they can afford to. I was counseled that I was ruining my preschool S’s opportunities by enrolling him in public school after preschool, but had both kids in public schools through 8th grade. Academically, it became an increasing problem, since so much time was spend on discipline and many, many non-academic subjects. Also, my D was taught the EXACT same math book and assignments for both 6th and 7th grades and would have had the same book for 8th grade except I had her take math in private summer school so she was allowed to “advance” to the next book and level (tho she had gotten Bs for both 6th & 7th grade math).</p>
<p>Actual hours in class differs pretty dramatically as well. Public school starts officially at 8am and ends at 1:30 ON Wed., 2:15 the rest of the week. Private schools start about 7:45 (or earlier) and generally end about 3pm (or later). With the threat of expulsion, there are very few discipline problems in private school, so much more time is devoted to subject matter. Over the course of the year, these differences in minutes add up and over the course of 13 years, it is compounded.</p>
<p>Nearly all the public school teachers I know were passionate and I’m sure excellent teachers but are all counting the days until they can retire because of the crazy pressure from NCLB. Kids whose first language is NOT English, kids in special ed and kids who just entered the school district are ALL included in deciding how well the school is performing. Morale is very low and the schools aren’t physically being properly maintained at comfortable temperatures (can reach high 80s and 90s, with high humidity).</p>
<p>Our state does practically nothing for gifted students–spends what is mandated on special needs, and teaches to the low middle. We do indeed have many dedicated professionals who are working to teach kids in public schools and doing their best, but it is hard and getting harder.</p>
<p>I question how “good” public schools really are in some on the high Pisa-scoring countries where it’s ubiquitous for parents to send their kids to cram classes after hours, on their own won, sing dollar, or yuan.</p>
<p>Do the public schools deserve the credit, or do the for-profit hagwans?</p>
<p>Within the last few years, this has started to change, but not that long ago…that was one of the important factors. </p>
<p>However, the Mainland Chinese preferred path of doing undergrad at an elite home college for undergrad and then getting one’s graduate degree abroad in the US or other countries isn’t as set in stone as Japan. </p>
<p>In Japan, one was taking a serious risk in terms of post-college job opportunities back home…especially back in the '90s and before with Japanese companies if they opted to do their undergrad outside the top universities in Japan. Recalled reading an article about an Japanese man who opted to attend Bucknell sometime in the '80s, graduated with flying colors, and had a hard time getting hired by Japanese companies even after getting an MBA from Waseda(#3-4). One of the companies which rejected him quietly advised him to consider going to UTokyo as a “transfer student” and completing a second BA there. Upon following that advice and graduating, the same Japanese companies which rejected him were suddenly falling all over themselves to hire him. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I recalled reading somewhere that HI has one of the highest rates of sending kids to private K-12 among US states. </p>
<p>Moreover, if the general mentality of the upper-middle class neighbors of my HI relatives and they themselves indicate anything…the gist was if one doesn’t send their kids to private schools K-12…especially HS like Punahou(Current Prez went there on scholarship), Iolani, etc, their academic preparation may be such that they’ll be ill-prepared for 4 year colleges…especially those on the mainland. And yes, they didn’t regard the UHawaii flagship or directional as viable academic options for their kids and they’ll be dirty looks if one suggested local community colleges. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Mixture of a long history of most upper-classes and many middle classes sending kids to private schools and from what I read, a local cultural aversion to making those in public schools who aren’t above-average academic achievers or better feel bad about themselves by having publicly funded programs for academically gifted or even above-average academic achievers.</p>
<p>GMTplus7 makes a good point about whether higher academic achievement is coming from superior public schools or instead is a side effect of a culture which puts a lot of resources into outside schooling and tutoring. </p>
<p>My town has a high Asian population, and as a result there are now many tutoring enterprises in the area. Asian kids in our district attend school 9-3 all summer, and then during the academic year, they receive tutoring some evenings and Saturday mornings. The result? Asian kids are almost exclusively those in the honors and AP classes, and there has not been a non-Asian val or sal for years. Our high school can now boast a nice number of NMFs too, which the principal loves to brag about. IMO, the public school had little to do with the success of those students.</p>
<p>Given that they attend the same public schools in town as whites, blacks, and Hispanics, do we conclude Asian kids are just smarter? More motivated? Harder working? Or are there important cultural factors at play?</p>
<p>We have a friend whose daughter decided to attend our public HS for junior and senior year. Because she had always attended private schools, she registered for all honors and AP classes. She was back in the private school, very expensive, selective and highly respected, by the way, before Christmas.</p>
<p>The reason they stated publicly was that she wasn’t having the experience she thought she would be getting. What they didn’t admit to was that she was getting all Cs and it would have ruined her chances at an Ivy League education. Academically, the highest level at our public HS is well beyond the local privates. Our area, though, is filled with educated, successful people.</p>
<p>What NCLB is trying to address is the unjumpable trench between the “Haves” and the “Have Nots.” It can’t be solved by standardized testing or by defunding the poorest schools and replacing them with for-profit programs. All of the “job creator” rhetoric is based on making that trench deeper and wider and is not helping the issue. Plus, since the federal government is a decreasingly small proportion of education funding (about 4% of our district), their sole influence is in legislating punishments, not in helping equip schools or attract better teachers.</p>
<p>If some of the Asian-American kids were immigrants who spent some time in schools in their former country, it’s possible the level of instruction was higher there.</p>
<p>One older HS classmate who emigrated to the US at 10 years of age mentioned how the academic level he experienced as a 5th grader in an ROC(Taiwan) public school wasn’t encountered again until he started at our urban public magnet high school.* </p>
<p>He was appalled at the LCD teaching endemic at his NYC neighborhood elementary and middle schools…along with the endemic disciplinary/crime issues in and out of class.</p>
<ul>
<li>Contrary to commonly bandied stereotypes bandied about even here, he never prepped for the NYC SHS exam. In fact, he decided to take it on a lark with 2 other middle school friends so he could spend the rest of that afternoon/evening hanging around Manhattan with them.</li>
</ul>
<p>Hmmm, if we believe that, then Hawaii should have the best public schools in the country, but that does not seem to be the case if we believe #24 and #26.</p>
<p>It is a myth that American school kids ‘learn’ or acquire creative thinking skills and kids in foreign schools don’t. Between busy work and multiple choice tests, there isn’t much room for that in much of the US system. SATs and APs are not exactly focused on creativity either. And when foreign students come to the US (and study totally in a foreign language) they do just fine in problem-solving, thinking, etc.</p>
<p>Ravitch’s rationalizing is not convincing. We have spent decades investing in supposedly better textbooks, computers, teacher training, professional curriculum, certifications etc etc etc. But there arent any substantial improvements. </p>
<p>Pretending that with the margin of error, maybe we are only as bad as #8 isnt helpful.</p>
<p>As far as I can tell, it’s basically a factor of money. If you’re in China and you can afford to go to the US, do it. Why else would there be so many Chinese at, really, a 2nd tier-university like Michigan State (sorry MSU alums, but it’s true)? I think for the vast majority of Chinese, it’s simply a factor of whether a US university is affordable. If it is, then go, if not, then don’t. It’s not about being too good or not good enough for whatever university in China. </p>
<p>I say this based on the Chinese students I’ve met.</p>
<p>We took in foreign exchange students from S Korea several years in a row. I can’t tell you how joyous they were to have free time here. They all loved it. What I found really interesting is if American kids went on a trip like this, they’d be given journals to write about their experience. These kids were given math problems to do. They’d tell my kids about how much time they spent in school and tutors and my kids were aghast. </p>
<p>All were ahead of my son taking AP Calc BC and were in lower grades. They also have a different age system, and stay in our k- 12 longer.</p>
<p>I read on here not too long ago and it makes sense, getting good math skills is really about repetition. You can master math if you practice it enough. So, what they’re doing with the skill and drill is really how you do get at least an above average grasp of math</p>
<p>Did anyone read Outliers about why Asian cultures are so good at math? Part of it is the language, their numbers make more number sense than ours. They’re mostly two letters and one syllable. </p>
<p>I bailed on public schools when my son was in first grade and I saw all the testing coming down the road. When grappling with the decision I chatted with groups of teachers, I volunteered a lot, and they said, if you have the money leave and don’t look back. It’s exactly what I do.</p>
<p>I hire a lot of locally educated young people. I’d say the education level that everyone touts here as tops in the country is a sad commentary on our education. Most of them lack basic grammar and spelling skills.</p>
<p>Wasn’t his claim that some Asian languages’ words for numbers like “twelve” and “twenty” were just “ten two” and “two ten”, facilitating how one thinks about the relationship between various numbers? Chinese may be used as an example:</p>
<p>However, this does not appear to be true for most Asian languages (seems like just Chinese and Vietnamese; try the different languages in the link above).</p>
<p>Even though attitudes are starting to change, many who are coming from Mainland China to study here in the US are doing so because they have the money and either failed to score high enough on the gaokao to gain admission to the top tier colleges like Tsinghua, Beida, Renmin, Shanghai Jiaotong, etc and/or wanted out of the highly cutthroat college prep/gaokao regimen altogether. </p>
<p>And the ones who fit the above include some students I’ve met who were admitted to elite Top 20 LACs/universities. </p>
<p>It’s much more likely for those attending lower-tiered institutions…especially considering even most wealthy Chinese parents I know of won’t be willing to pay international student tuition for their kids to attend lower-tiered US colleges if their kids gained admission to top Chinese colleges like Beida or Tsinghua. </p>
<p>In their eyes, it’d be the equivalent of weighing admission to a Top 30 LAC/university with a merit/other scholarship making actual cost $20k/year vs paying $40K+ for a bottom-tier college and opting for the latter. Won’t make sense from their cost-benefit calculus and consequently they won’t be willing to pay the tuition.</p>
<p>In the 1980s, the state of New Jersey tried to address the funding disparity through laws requiring the equal allocation of funds among the richer suburban districts and the so-called “Abbott” districts, the poorer urban ones. It’s now been 25 years, and certain underprivileged districts have beautiful physical facilities (computer labs, indoor pools, high-tech theaters). Many suburban schools are old, crowded and leaky. And guess what. The test score gap between suburban and urban is still huge. The money didn’t cause any demonstrable difference in educational outcomes.</p>
<p>I’m not arguing that money does not matter, but it won’t solve many problems.</p>
<p>It’ simple math …spend time on math…get good at math…spend time on the sports field …get good at the sport. In the end, we all only have 24 hrs/day and a limited number of years in a classroom. Our choices reflect our outcomes.</p>
<p>dietz, I JUST heard a segment about this (with Amanda Ripley and a few others as guests) on NPR tonight. I think it was Michelle Martin’s show? (I am traveling and it is one I am not familiar with.) Very interesting.</p>
<p>Sally: I really though hard about whether to post this or not. Sports is such a third rail and suggesting there are negative aspects to our current system can cause a lot of outrage. The article is very interesting - and as is the nature of The Atlantic - balanced.</p>