In Shock - just ran two financial calculators!

bclintonk · July 31, 2013, 4:38pm

These aren’t my definitions. I’m only reporting what the schools themselves report on their Common Data Sets, a portion of which also gets republished in US News. (And no, mom2collegekids, I’m not “misusing stats,” I’m only telling you what the colleges themselves report; if I had more detailed breakouts on financial aid for in-state v. out-of-state students, for example, I’d gladly report that here, but since the colleges don’t report that on their CDS, I can’t reproduce it here. But in the meantimes I’ll ask you to please refrain from the ad hominems; they contribute nothing useful to the discussion).

My understanding is that “percent of need met” on the Common Data Set is based on financial aid from all sources (federal, state, institutional, and “external,” i.e., outside scholarships reported to and/or administered by the school). This would include both grant/scholarship aid as well as “self-help” aid, which on the CDS includes both need-based loans (e.g., federal subsidized Stafford loans, but not unsubsidized Stafford loans which are available without a showing of need) and need-based work-study money.

I also don’t consider loans and work-study genuine “aid.” Loans are only an alternative way of paying, spreading the cost over a longer period, with interest. They may help a student over a financial hurdle, but the student ends up paying in full, and more, in the long run. Work-study money isn’t free, either; the student needs to work for it, which she might be equally able to do in the private sector. Work-study doesn’t reduce the cost to the student, it only guarantees the student a minimum number of hours of paid work which might be used to help pay for that student’s education, but the student “pays” for it in time, effort, and opportunity cost, same as any other job. Nonetheless, the CDS allows (actually requires) colleges to count these categories as “need-based aid” along with need-based grants and scholarships, and they are included in the calculation of “percentage of need met.”

I think you’ll find if you examine a few colleges’ CDS (Section H, Financial Aid) you’ll see wide variance in the ratio of grant/scholarship aid to self-help aid, and in the sources of grant/scholarship money (federal, state, and institutional). For example, at UNC Chapel Hill, the ratio of need-based grant/scholarship aid to self-help aid is about 3.5 to 1 ($93.8 million in grants/scholarships to $27 million in self-help). At Auburn, that ratio is about 1 to 1.3 ($36.3 million in grants/scholarships to $47.6 million in self-help). The two schools benefit from similar amounts of federal grant aid (mostly Pell grants), $16.3 million at UNC and $14.8 million at Auburn. A big difference is that the state of North Carolina kicks in $12.7 million, while the state of Alabama contributes only $1.7 million in need-based grants. But the biggest difference is what the school itself contributes: $59.2 million in institutional need-based grants/scholarships at Carolina, compared to only $16.9 million in that category at Auburn.

Erin_s_Dad · July 31, 2013, 4:45pm

I just want to point out that some schools WILL require you to file FA information for merit awards. My DD received a NMF full tuition scholarship and I had to file FAFSA (only for her freshman year).

GolfFather · July 31, 2013, 5:02pm

True. But if one is going to apply for a loan, college officials have told me we have to submit the financial info anyway.

thumper1 · July 31, 2013, 5:03pm

We had to file both FAFSA and profile freshman year for DS who received a music performance award…merit only. Our EFC exceeded the cost of attendance.

I believe the FAFSA has to be filed if you plan to take the direct loan, Perkins loan, and I believe the Plus loan.

Northwesty…I’m not sure I agree with you but am glad it seemed to work for your kiddos. First…if your student GETS merit aid, it would reduce your financial need and thus any need based aid you your kid would receive at most schools…so the school would not be giving you double aid in most cases. When you check that “no” for applying for financial aid, it doesn’t matter for admissions at all in most cases as the vast majority of colleges are need blind for admissions…meaning the admissions office couldn’t care less about your finances.

By checking that NO box…you really are indicating that you could be a full pay at those schools (wink wink).

hen4763 · July 31, 2013, 5:08pm

My D received a NMSF full tuition merit award and we need to file a FAFSA each year, even though we don’t receive any need based aid.

MisterK · July 31, 2013, 5:20pm

A year ago, I researched roughly 20 schools for merit aid possibilities. I didn’t find a single one that required FAFSA (or any other financial disclosure) for true merit awards.

For many of those schools, posters here insisted that FAFSA was required, but it simply wasn’t true. Often, parents don’t understand that their kids’ awards are in fact preferential packaging of FA. Schools really blur the distinction; they know that families like to feel they they’ve “won a scholarship.”

At some schools, the first person you speak to will state that financial disclosure is required for merit consideration. In that case, ask to speak to a senior member or supervisor; the story will change. Many FA staff members are just quoting from the standard script, and they don’t really know.

I’m sure there are some schools/situations where financial disclosure is necessary, as apparently for Erin’s Dad’s daughter. But they are few and far between.

northwesty · July 31, 2013, 5:46pm

“When you check that “no” for applying for financial aid, it doesn’t matter for admissions at all in most cases as the vast majority of colleges are need blind for admissions”

Thumper – if it doesn’t matter, then why would admissions ask you that question? Need blind schools typically don’t ask you that question. But merit schools often do, because they are the schools that give you your merit award at the exact same time they offer you admission.

“By checking that NO box…you really are indicating that you could be a full pay at those schools (wink wink).”

Disagree. What a big merit school (USC, Case Western, Richmond, Miami) is trying to find is a smart kid whose family might enroll if they gave you a $20-25k merit discount, knowing that you would be able to pay the remaining $30k a year. If you have to pay full sticker price, that smart kid will just enroll at Georgetown or Duke instead.

furrydog · July 31, 2013, 5:51pm

Kudo to you for willing to chip in some (significant) money. However, her contribution can be a lot lower if she lives off campus. My niece is going to Cal and she lives off campus (an apartment very close to all her classes). The apartment is sort of a dump but in a pretty safe area. She pays less that $500 a month - she shares the apartment with two other girls and she lives in the living room (with some partitions for privacy). She only pays rent for 9 months (sublet during summer). She also cooks most of time instead of eating out. Aside from the $13K tuition, I don’t think she spend more than 10K a year on books/supplies/food.
So, I think Cal or UCLA is totally do-able for your daughter if you can chip in $20K a year.
My niece is a rising senior and she has interned last and this summer. She brings in between 15K-18K each summer (ah, it is good to be a s/w intern in the Valley).

I guess you cannot argue with free money from UA - but Tuscaloosa is so far away…

intparent · July 31, 2013, 5:56pm

Macalester required us to file for need based aid for D2 to be considered for merit aid. She was awarded merit it, no need based aid (unless you count subsidized & unsubsidized loans as need based aid). Tranquilmind, I was also hesitant to share my info. But I have gotten over it… as others have said, these schools see thousands of family’s information – they don’t know us personally, and we ended up (surprisingly) getting some need based aid at D2’s first choice school. For a $10,000 grant, it was worth it to us.

thumper1 · July 31, 2013, 5:57pm

Northwesty…that question is on the common application.

Yes…schools do want to garner students who are top students and will offer merit aid to them to encourage them to attend…and likely that is what your kids exoerienced. But really…checking that NO box really doesn’t matter. The schools would have been sold on your high achieving kids whether you could pay…or not…and certainly lured them with merit money.

For schools that practice any kind of enrollment management…and many do…checking NO is actually a tip to the schools that no aid is needed.

MD_Mom_1 · July 31, 2013, 6:03pm

I was hoping that checking the no box would help DS’s admissions chances, but it did not seem to.

hen4763 · July 31, 2013, 6:08pm

Mister - please see the following, taken from the Fordham U website, in which it states that FAFSA must be filed annually to qualify for these merit scholarships, which are based on NMSF status and grades, and are clearly not repackaged need based aid.

"Fordham University Presidential, Jesuit and Semifinalist Scholarships

Who is eligible?
Nominees are freshmen graduating from high school in the top 1% of their class, or semifinalists in the National Merit, National Achievement or Hispanic Recognition competitions who are also in the top 10% of their class. Jesuit Scholarship recipients must also be Jesuit high school graduates.

On what basis are awards granted?
Excellent Academic Achievement in high school, test scores, personal characteristics. Presidential and Jesuit Scholarships are awarded to the top 20 applicants each year.

What is the range of the awards?
Full tuition less N.Y.S. Scholarship, Tap, Pell and one-half of aid received from all other sources. Presidential and Jesuit awards also include room (excluding board and fees).
For how long is the award given?
These are four year scholarships requiring reapplication for renewal. It may be renewed for up to eight academic year semesters (fall and spring).

What is the renewal process?
Students must complete the FAFSA and TAP application (NY Residents only) annually, maintain ‘full-time’ enrollment status, and maintain a minimum cumulative GPA of 3.0"

ucbalumnus · July 31, 2013, 6:11pm

Re: #172

That just sounds like a more conspiracy-theory version of saying that many colleges have financial aid budgets that are not sufficient to meet the financial need of the students that they admit.

Fortunately, net price calculators can give an early estimate to the student before s/he decides whether to apply. The student can then remove from the application list any school which has no chance of being affordable.

thumper1 · July 31, 2013, 6:17pm

Northwesty…some schools actually consider interest when considering admissions.

YMMV with this issue. I’m sure much depends on the college and how much they want to attract your student with merit money.

At some schools…being full pay is actually an admissions tip. At others it doesn’t matter…and there are all sorts of ways in between.

My DD’s college absolutely practiced enrollment management and were quite candid about it. She applied EA, visited before applying, had an interview with the enrollment manager who was in our area (really) and still got accepted with a small merit award.

She applied to another school and didn’t visit at all, and also got a merit award there. That was a RD application.

Both schools were similar in terms of demographics, and both practiced enrollment management.

But then…we checked YES.

I’m glad itmworkedmout for your kids…but I’m going to guess that it would have anyway! The sound like strong students who the schools really wanted.

And yes…I have read what you posted.

cptofthehouse · July 31, 2013, 6:18pm

The question is on the common application. For those schools thata are truly need blind in admissions, it can even be a plus to show that you are not a “silver spoon” applicant. I agree that it is not the case for those schools that have to watch yield and are under budget constraints with financial aid. But truly, most schools are need blind in admissions. The ones that are not tend to be the ones that tend to give good financial aid to those accepted but will not say outright that they are need blind.

Yes, a lot of school “admit-deny”. They do so because they are need blind in admissions and don’t have the money to give everyone full need. So they allocate aid resources to those that they can give the enough money to encourage them to come.

I’ve had friends in admissions and financial aid at various times and have a good idea how it does work at a few colleges. Yes, there are a lot of “admit-deny” schools, but those schools generally have admissons operate on a need blind basis, allocate merit money to those they most want and then throw the batch over to finanical aid who does the 'enrollment management".

There are very few schools that can meet full need (even as they define it) to the majority of their applicants. ALso most schools in this country are not that competitive when it comes to admissions.

The way it often works with schools, as the “admit’” decisions are made,by admission, the names are given to those at financial aid, often a whole other department Then Fin aid starts checking to see if the forms and info are in order there to put an aid package together. It 's a formidable job coming up with aid packages for all of the admitted students that are applying for financial aid, and having all of the doucmentation is essential. Usually, they are the bean counters of the process, and the relationship with admissions can be tense at times.

The thing is accepting or denying someone just because they checked that little block is not the way it usually works because there is a world of difference between a kid that needs $5-10K in fin aid and most of it can be met by some work study and the Direct Loans, throw a little grant in as a sweetner, and the ones who need $60K, a full ride to have a chance to come to the school.

But, most of the time, for merit money, you don’t need to file FAFSA. You will usually be told, or if you read up about merit money on the school’s website, it will tell you outright if that is the case. I’ve never been in a situation where a school has required one for merit aid, but I sure don’t doubt that such requirements exist for some money.

cptofthehouse · July 31, 2013, 6:20pm

I want to add that one of my kids did get awards from Fordham U and we did not fill out the FAFSA. Whether we would have had to have done so, to get the money, I don’t know, but we sure as heck had not when the award was given. And it was a hefty award.

Greta · July 31, 2013, 6:22pm

Totally supporting this statement of MisterK. Kid gets a scholarship. Family feels warm and fuzzy about the school, proud of their kid ‘earning’ the tuition discount.

Most scholarships are FA in gift wrap. This is especially true if a student has to file FASFA/Profile or similar annually to maintain the “Scholarship”.

Agentninetynine · July 31, 2013, 6:23pm

They can call it a handout if they want. If a college wants to give my kid $, I’m all for it.

northwesty · July 31, 2013, 6:28pm

Thumper – you are probably right that checking or not checking the box probably does not (by itself) alter the outcome all that much. The enrollment managers are quite sophisticated in knowing/predicting how much you can likely pay from other data you provide or which is obtainable – zip code, the kid’s high school, parent’s occupation and educational level, etc.

The tricky thing in playing the game with an enrollment manager is presenting your kid as interested enough (so you could realistically be swayed by getting some money) but not as a sure thing.

Not unlike what we all tried to do back in our dating days!!

ucbalumnus · July 31, 2013, 6:33pm

Not exactly. The criteria for keeping a purely merit-based scholarship year to year is typically maintenance of a high enough college GPA. Purely need-based financial aid can vary year to year based on family finances. An award that is both merit and need based may have both the maintenance GPA requirement and may vary the amount based on family finances.

In Shock - just ran two financial calculators!

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