Probably somebody will come up with a way to fix these laws. Perhaps something like limiting the protection only to services or actions that would, to a reasonable person, suggest that the service provider endorses the particular thing in question. Where that factually would fall in specific cases is hard to say. I think it would be hard to say that simply delivering 50 pizzas to the wedding reception would qualify. In my mind, serving as the wedding photographer would be more problematic, while perhaps officiating over the wedding itself would be beyond the line.
Please. There are 15.7 million members in the black Christian churches that oppose gay marriage.
There are almost 70 million Catholics in the US.
Please what? We’re talking about activism, not numbers. Personally, I think outreach and education is a much better way of bringing people around. If you read the polling trends, they are moving toward full acceptance, which is great. I’m not sure I get the need for hysteria, hate and bullying.
Zoos, so you are saying that the largest bloc of activists against gay marriage are members of black churches?
I bravely listened to Mike Pence on Sean Hannity. Am I allowed to link it?
http://www.hannity.com/articles/news-476261/audio-gov-pence-on-religious-freedom-13459250/
In the beginning, Pence insisted that he was strongly opposed to discrimination. Then, around four-fifths of the way through, Hannity asked the relevant question. Hannity said, “How would you answer Stephanopoulos’s question about somebody that has deeply held religious convictions that are at odds with a customer?” Pence said, First Amendment rights, blah blah, “Our courts have been the place that has answered that question.” He doesn’t acknowledge, however, that the law is giving some guidance to the courts about how to answer the question.
What if we take the issue out of the realm of cakes and weddings. What if you have a private physician practice whose partners are all strongly opposed to people who are gay. Should the practice be able to turn down prospective patients on the basis of sexual orientation? Would the Indiana law apply?
I keep coming back for the comments. It’s amusing and offensive to see how broad a brush many posters have painted against every Hoosier. I guess I’ve never been apt to blame every citizen for something their legislature does.
Do you really not set foot or cross borders into any state, nor consider their colleges, when you disagree with one of their laws? I’m pretty sure every state has at least one law with which I’d vehemently disagree.
FWIW, D is admitted to 9 Indiana colleges and we have received 4 letters affirming their non-discrimination clauses and commitment to equality for all. One of those from a small Catholic college close to Pizza Guy, mentioned upthread.
I am interested in the example of lower order Amish not doing business with English. I’ve only read of this. Amish here are extremely business oriented. Now I’m wondering if they would sell a wedding cake to a gay couple.
Not a hypothetical:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/02/19/doctor-refuses-to-care-for-gay-couples-baby-is/202580
Hayden, Yep and then the gay person/people would have to take the practice to court. Also, the practice only has to prove it would cause a burden or likely burden on their religious freedom - unlike the Federal and other state’s law which say it must cause a “substantial” burden. And Indiana’s law (Arkansas, SC, too) are the only one’s which allows for private, civil suits to be brought. All the other laws it’s only if a government entity is involved. Most states already have anti-discrimination laws which override religious freedom laws. Indiana does not have that.
“I guess I’ve never been apt to blame every citizen for something their legislature does.”
I hold the people of Indiana accountable. These are the people they elected to represent them. Now, imo, it’s up to the people of Indiana to do something about the people they elected into office.
I wonder if that pediatrician refuses to treat the children of heterosexual adulterers on religious grounds,one of the Big Ten, and probably way more common in her practice than children of same-sex couples.
This controversy provides another reason to be relieved I am not religious. On the other hand, will businesses be able to refuse service to me because I don’t believe there is a God? When I look at it from this perspective, I still don’t care, because I would never want to give that type of person any of my money anyway.
“because I would never want to give that type of person any of my money anyway.”
Kind of similar to companies, other states, and people like me who don’t want to give any of our money to the people and State of Indiana or other states which have this law.
I for one, would appreciate this thread remaining open as I am learning a lot. I very much appreciate all the posters who have taken the time to explain in a straight forward and non judgmental way, the difference between the Indiana law and the religious freedom laws in other states.
Kind of, but not really. My approach gives my money to someone else in the same business who doesn’t not like how I feel about God. Your approach punishes everyone living in the entire state, whether they agree with the law or not. I would rather not hurt innocent people over one person’s beliefs.
Except it isn’t one person’s belief. It was passed by the legislature and signed into law. It reflects on the entire state.
There are lots of laws in this country that people don’t agree with. Most thinking people understand this.
My guess is that there are very few businesses that will exercise their new found rights in this area, and those who do will lose business.
This is from the doctor who refused to treat the child of a gay couple (from post #199):
How utterly awful. How can someone not be hurt by receiving that letter even if they were switched to another pediatrician in the same practice?
The article goes on to say that the doctor’s action was not illegal but that it goes against the standings of both the AMA and the American Academy of Pediatrics. Sadly, it is not uncommon.
And they have charts showing this.
@romanigypsyeyes - this incident was in Michigan. Forewarned is forearmed.
Did some people just discover that religions can be hurtful??
Well, they are already losing business, with the Disciples of Christ moving their national convention.
It is true that there are a lot of laws that people disagree with in this country. And every person has the right to decide which ones they are going to just accept, and which ones that they are going to fight. It seems that a lot of people have picked fight on this one.