<p>Thanks, Marite. The two APs slated for next year (“eighth grade”) are AP Statistics, which is not otherwise in my son’s math program’s curriculum (he did a summer assignment on statistics this last summer, but it won’t come up again) and for which he can self-study with the ALEKS online course. He is in an “honors” chemistry class now, with a good number of labs, and after more review next year I think he can take the chemistry AP test. Noting your advice, I’ll make sure he takes further chemistry classes via PSEO enrollment while he is still getting ready for his undergraduate application. He will probably take the whole EPGY physics sequence too (he has had some lab courses in physics too this year) and eventually take the AP physics test(s), but that is probably farther, as I think calculus BC also is for him.</p>
<p>Interesting and applicable article in today’s Chronicle of Higher Education, “Scholars Say College Admissions Officers Misues Advanced Placement Data.”</p>
<p>A few pertinent excerpts:</p>
<p>"College Amdissions officers should be cautious when weighing AP courses on applicant’s high-school classes according to a working paper presented at the Annual meeting fo the Ameircan Economic Assocation this month. The paper asserts that the mere act of taking AP courses in high scohol - as distinct from scoring well ont eh official AP tests - does not predict that the student will perform well in college…</p>
<p>The paper’s authors…analyzed the records of more than 20,000 students who graduated from Texas high schools in 1999 and who enrolled that year in the state’s four year public universities…[The research showed] that all of the variance in the students college grade point avferages and dropout rates were familiar predictors of college performance: high school grade point average, SAT scores, parent income levels and the proportion of experienced teachers in the students’ schools. After such variances were accounted for, the AP courses on the students’ transcripts DID NOT HAVE ANY PREDICTIVE POWER on their own…</p>
<p>“AP experience may serve as a signal of high ability and motivation,” the authors write, “but it does not by itself indicate superior academic readiness.” The authors expressed concern that some school districts and college-admissions officers behave as if simply TAKING an AP course, regardless of one’s performance on the AP test, will help a student do better in college. In an interview (study author) Thomas said that she generally supports the recent expansion of the aP program and similar efforts to make high-school curricula more rigorous. She worries, however, that some school districts may be paying too little attention to the quality of their AP courses…</p>
<p>[In an excerpt from the study] the authors wrote “State laws and other de facto pressures requiring that schools expand AP course offerings without regard to the available human and fiancial resources risk comprising the value and integrity of the AP program. In response to pressure, many schools are simply renaming existing courses ‘Advanced Placement.’ When the courses themselves do not change, students are dangerlously misled about the demands of truly college-level courses. While expanding access to and participation in AP are laudable goals, they must be coupled with diligent attention to program quality.”</p>
<p>In a telephone interview, Trevor Packer, executive director of the College Board’s Advanced Placement program, said “More and more people have felt that AP classes are something on a student’s transcripts that would be meaningful in the admissions process” That belief, he continues should be scruntinized carefully because the College Board has established only the much narrower claim that students who do well on AP tests should be awarded college credit in those subjects…not whether taking AP courses per se is an accurate predictor of college performance."</p>
<p>Hmmmm, great article, reconfirms what people have been saying on this thread. Thanks for the article. I am feeling pretty good about how my daughters school handles the AP’s and hopefully the college admissions people get it. My daughter will be following her passions, take the courses Honors AP or regular and see where it take her…</p>
<p>Carolyn:</p>
<p>I takeaway a key word in the title: ‘misuse’…if true, then adcoms weigh heavily AP courses, regardless of whether they should.</p>
<p>citygirlsmom:</p>
<p>It may well be that what your hs consider an honors class would be an AP class elsewhere in terms of coverage and level of difficulty. Some schools, both private and public, have abandoned the AP curriculum in favor of their own, but their students still take the AP exams in May and do very well on them. So it is entirely possible to excel despite the lack of a full slate of AP courses in one’s school. You can look up the curriculum for each AP your D might be interested in taking if it were available. These are publicized on the College Board website and are often referred by teachers as “Acorn Book” because of the logo. You can access them online by registering on AP-Central as an educator or as a parent. The curriculum may change a bit every year. Some review books are supposed to be excellent and can help prepare a student for the AP exam that year. </p>
<p>As you may have gathered, not all AP courses are given equal weight by admission committees, and not all are given credit even by colleges which grant Advanced Standing for a certain number of APs as long as students achieve the appropriate score. For example, I have not seen AP-US or comparative Government recognized for credit by the colleges that I looked up for my S. AP-Statistics is not recognized by many colleges–a real pity in my opinion, as I believe that statistics is useful for far more students than Calculus. This does not mean that your D should study only for those APs that will “count” and ignore subjects that are of real interest to her. Even if she is not granted credit, the fact that she will have taken rigorous courses will be taken into consideration.</p>
<p>Carolyn ~ Just a thought: I have seen published (but don’t have a link to) the conclusion that the single best predictor of college success is taking and scoring well on a large number of AP tests. I agree with the thrust of the article you cite that simply taking the AP classes may or may not help prepare a student for college. But in fact I think that taking a large number of tests, and doing well on them, is much more indicative of the ability to succeed at a top college than the SAT, or ACT, or high school GPA, or class rank. I also think adcoms at the most selective colleges know this.</p>
<p>The colege Board is careful to say that “they do not know” how APs would serve as indications of ability to succeed at a top college. This, in my view, is not true. CB knows, but deliberately does not study this issue since the results would potentially reduce the desire of colleges to require the SAT I and SAT II tests as admission screens (reducing CB revenues). In other words, the CB worries that the AP tests could cannibalize the SAT tests if used for admission rather than placement purposes.</p>
<p>Right now the CB has the best of both worlds. It administers both sets of tests (SAT and AP) and derives revenues from both, while publicly claiming ignorance of the fact that a group of AP scores is a better predictor of success in college than SAT results.</p>
<p>A couple of things I don’t think anyone else has raised.</p>
<p>Many kids take AP exams without taking a corresponding AP course, often by self-studying additional material while taking a “regular” course. When my children were in HS, for example, my D took the Eng Comp AP and both French APs without taking the corresponding courses. </p>
<p>I sub on occasion in a school district that has chosen to put heavy emphasis on AP courses; they’re currently considering making taking AP courses a graduation requirement. Keep in mind that a high school has 180 days to cover the same material that a college may cover in 35-45 one hour lectures. This makes the material far more accessible.</p>
<p>Finally, many colleges no longer give actual course credit for the AP. Some give placement into the next course in a sequence; some give “general” credit; some give no credit. IMHO, this is is especially appropriate in the sciences, where few high schools can afford the equipment to do the labs thoroughly and correctly.</p>
<p>Dmd:</p>
<p>You bring up several good points. On the issue of credit for APs, this varies widely from college to college (for example, different amounts of credit are given for AP-Bio and AP Chemistry at different colleges). Of course, there are some colleges that do not allow Advanced Standing, so piling on AP credits will not accelerate graduation. My S’s college only allowed two AP credits to be used, and only after taking more advanced courses in the relevant fields. This enables students to take more electives.</p>
<p>A quick note from the state of Delaware (Motto: “The First State” – which sounds better than “Man we’re tiny”)</p>
<p>We have been having an ongoing debate about “tiered” HS diplomas tied to a student’s score on our DSTP (Delaware State Testing Program). The inital proposal was a disaster and is probably going to be scrapped. Recently, a legislator introduced another proposal for a distinguished diploma – the quote from the newspaper is: </p>
<p>“Students would receive a “distinguished achievement” diploma if they achieve a certain score on the DSTPs, or maintain a 3.65 grade-point average and earn at least 13 advanced-placement credits, according to a draft copy of the legislation.”</p>
<p>I read and re-read that and it still makes no sense to me at all. In our system, a year-long class earns 1.25 credits – so a person would need to take over 10 year-long AP classes to earn the “distinguished” notation! That CAN’T be right, can it?</p>
<p>Thirteen? Wow! How many high schools offer that many? Ours sure doesn’t. Maybe someone should propose that the legislator take all 13 APs before introducing the legislation?</p>
<p>For example, I have not seen AP-US or comparative Government recognized for credit by the colleges that I looked up for my S.>></p>
<p>Marite, Good point. Also, one thing my daughter has discovered is that many schools will only give limited credit for multiple AP’s in a single subject, especially if you plan to major in that subject. As you may recall, she opted for the Honors AP US class instead of the AP USH class this year. She was worried about telling her AP Euro teacher about her choice but the teacher told her that many schools wouldn’t give credit for both. D. has done some checking and found this to be true at several schools she’s interested in.</p>
<p>Reasonabledad - The article mentioned a study conducted within the UC system that sounds similar to your concept of “Doing better on AP’s is a predictor of college success” - I’ll see if I can post it later. However, the main study discussed in the article didn’t look at AP scores, only at how taking the classes related to college level work. They did indicate that colleges should - but don’t - consider AP scores in the admissions process. (Think of how many seniors fill up on AP classes to impress adcoms - yet the scores aren’t in until long after they’ve been accepted) I think the authors were careful not to say that high schools shouldn’t offer AP classes, just that offering them willy-nilly to students not prepared for them doesn’t correlate to improved performance in college.</p>
<p>Dmd - High schools don’t have 180 days to cover material for AP classes - the test is in early May and most AP teachers I know aim to finish the material by late March to allow time for review and test prep.</p>
<p>I have not read the whole thread…but just a thought on my local public high school which did NOT make Jay Mathews list of “best” 100 public high schools. What is interesting in our high school which, course, would NOT allow it to be on Mathew’s list…we have ONLY 400 students in the whole HS 9-12 grade. Of those 400 students, there are these AP courses available:</p>
<p>AP English, AP Calc BC, AP Eur History, AP US Hist, AP Physics, AP Comp Scie AB, AP Statistics, but any student can petition to take any OTHER AP’s at local high schools as long as they can provide their own transportation…without cost to the parent…so in essence you can also take AP Chem and AP Biology at one other HS and AP foreign languages at others…districts have a reciprocal agreement because districts are so small and close to each other geographically!!!</p>
<p>Xiggi is correct in that the term AP is not just an empty label, but a protocol administered by the College Board. At my D’s school, a class that is merely accelerated but doesn’t adhere to the CB’s curriculum (&with the CB’s terminal exam) is called Honors. Honors courses can be quite rigorous, depending on a teacher, & since colleges look favorably on a student’s record which includes these, there should be at least as many Honors as AP courses, at any school. (In my D’s, every AP course has a prerequisite Honors, with eligibility for promotion indicated by at least a B+, preferably A-.)</p>
<p>But note that just because a h.s. claims to “offer” a double-digit # of APs, that can be theoretical. D’s h.s. “offers” 22 or so, but that would depend on available, interested students to make an actual class in a given semester.</p>
<p>There is absolutely no watering down of any AP course content at D’s school. Any h.s. doing otherwise is sabotaging itself & its students, who may not pass the exam if not well prepared. Adcoms will compare an exam result with an AP notation on a transcript.</p>
<p>I disagree somewhat that a low SAT test score is predictive of AP class performance. Not necessarily – & depending on the course. An AP US History course might be well-mastered by a low-scoring old SAT I Math test-taker. AP Chem, Physics, Calc are another story.</p>
<p>D’s AP Chem teacher is administering the h.s. course (including interim tests) in the same manner, & with a similar content & difficulty as the ultimate exam. The class has only very capable students in it, who find this class semi-terrifying. Definitely not “watered down.”</p>
<p>I just skimmed over this thread, and just want to share our experiences. My kids ended up going to Catholic highschools because the excellent public schools in Westchester county, NY where a number of them graduated, would not let them take all of those wonderful APs that they offer. The schools gatekeep jealously. And my kids did not meet the criterion to take those courses, some of which have fierce competition for a spot. They have all ended up with many AP courses, and son1 was a true AP stud at a school that had rampant grade inflation but does teach to the test for the APs. He did well on the APs, but he does tend to test well. </p>
<p>My current highschoolers’ prep school does not use the AP designation on course which can hurt students applying to some schools that go by that AP on the transcript when they recalculate your gpa. The grade deflation puts another whammy on the grades. One young man I know was turned down by UVA and the stated reason was that his grades did not measure up, and he is actually a very good student by this school’s standards. But though he took AP exams, he has no designated AP courses, and the adcom on his case cannot get over that one. I shake my head, because they have taken a number of kids from this school before, all with lower academic stats, but because they were of one special interest group or another. And I happen to know a kid from a school where the grades are so inflated who was accepted to UVA this season, and there certainly is no question in my mind who is the better student. Neither kid a special hook and were “academic” prospects. So in some cases it does pay to have those APs and grade inflation, to boot. </p>
<p>However, overall, the lack of AP designation hardly hurts the prospects of most kids who do tend to apply the the same cluster of schools. Apparently when you go off the radar screens of colleges, is when the problem can arise. </p>
<p>I do not see a*problem with schools that have low average SATs putting in an AP program. Better they keep their top students there by having some incentives in place. In my area, the public schools are skimpy on the APs, stingy on allowing kids to take them. They have tended to lose the top students to private venues as a result, and any families who put a lot of time and energy in the school even if their kids are not top material have also exited. The private schools in this area are extremely competitive; every bit as bad as the NYC area, a big surprise for me. And it all shows in the results. There is not a public school in the state that can hold a candle to any of the top 500 schools listed in those ratings that came out with a ranking of sorts . The cream has been skimmed right from the top. Very few kids are accepted to HPY from the public schools here for all the blue ribbon awards and all of the other hype. I, myself, am paying a veritable fortune and going through all sorts of contortions to put mine into private school. It would be so much easier for them to go to the highschool just down the road–and I am paying for 5 school tuitions even before college, because I so dislike the way the public school here is run. </p>
<p>My kids have all had many AP courses and exams. Current senior is scheduled to take 3 at the end of the year-English Lit, Art History, Calc AB. He already has 6 under his belt, having taken 4 last year-Eng Com, Bio, Enviromental Studies, US History. He took AP music as a freshman as all of my kids tend to do, and AP European as a sophomore. He is about average in the number of AP eams for his school-- most kids also tend to have a language, AP Physics, World History, Govt in there as well, which he does not.</p>
<p>My S who ultimately went to Harvard took AP’S as follows: CALC AB, BC, Physics (2), Chem, Bio, US Hist, English, Comp Scie A and AB, and had to take some at other high schools…the year he was too young to drive the district sent a minivan to the HS to pick him up during the school day…they went above and beyond!!! He graduate valedictorian, AP Scholar with Distinction in Junior and Senior years, and was Natl Merit Finalist. They did a good job with him and I will be forever grateful.</p>
<p>By the way…he got 5’s in all with exception of AP Engl…only a 3…too bad</p>
<p>Garland:</p>
<p>I did a calculation when my S took Bio in college instead of AP-Bio, using the same textbook. 4 hours per week for 26 weeks = 104 hours of class time. In fact, the way things were arranged, every other week there was a lab instead of a lecture.</p>
<p>AP-Bio: School begins early Sept. Even if actual teaching ends in March, with April devoted to review, the number of hours would be: 6 hours per week (double period, four days a week) over seven months, minus two weeks vacation(fall, christmas)= 28 weeksx6= 168 hours of class time. The pace of teaching is definitely more deliberate in an AP-Bio class than in a college class.</p>
<p>Marite, when my son took Bio in college, he took the same bio that the premeds there took. It was only a one semester course, so he had maybe 15 weeks, probably a bit less as I am not taking the finals weeks into account. My high schooler took AP last year and it met 6 periods a week, but his periods are 50 minutes, not a full hour with the one double period being lab… My college student pulled a “D” in that Bio course, by the way. Calc in college also can be compressed and much more difficult than highschool calculus as my son found out. H got a “4” on the AP calculus AB, exam but ended up with a “D” in calc in college. A whole different ballgame.</p>