<p>Idmom06, what is the basis of your speculation that BBC was wrong in the wording? As a matter of fact, wikipedia and some other sources also said the same as BBC. It was cut-and-dry that Hamm “won” by a mathematical error. It doesn’t matter how you want to twist the word “official” or “ruling”.</p>
<p>Well stillgreen if ALL you are implying is a mathematical error caused Paul Hamm to win the gold (and not that there was a FIG ruling on the issue), then perhaps you have a point. Maybe. But then, an error in judging cause Yang not to suffer penalty for illegal moves in his routine which also caused an incorrect result. What do we do about that?</p>
<p>(btw…it’s LDmom. Let’s get all the errors corrected.)</p>
<p>Idmom06, your reply is apparently the double standards I have been talking about. Stick by the rules when the outcomes are favorable. Otherwise, argue and complain your way up, either by evoking fairness and ethics or other technicalities. If it were fair for Hamm and Yang, then it was also fair for Liukin and others. You can’t have it both ways.</p>
<p>I actually don’t like either outcome…but if you will read my prior post, you will see that I don’t advocate stripping the Chinese gymnast of her medal either. HOWEVER, I do agree judged sports are in need of huge overhauls.</p>
<p>ldmom06 (I have the L this time. My eyes are deteriorating. I am older than 16 :-)), actually I would consider it was the other Chinese gymnast, the bronze medalist, Yang yilin, who should have been awarded the gold medal, if the judging were more competent.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that Olympic glory, first and foremost, for the PRC is primarily for domestic consumption.</p>
<p>How the int’l world sees China (and the govt. specifically) is an ancillary matter.</p>
<p>I think the IOC should have given the Korean guy a medal after the fact. What’s so bad about having two golds? Though I hadn’t heard the story about there being a missing deduction. I think the 16 year age limit is a silly rule, you should be able to compete the year that you’ll be able to do your best work. Those Chinese girls have been training since they were toddlers anyway. One point made last night was that the judges are less experienced because they have to be from countries without contestants. It’s a problem with all the sports that aren’t objective. (Holistic scoring anyone?)</p>
<p>Funny. Many of my classmates who happen to be internationals, said similar comments on how the Olympics programs are presented in the US, especially from NBC, dramatized for domestic consumption. There are seemingly a lot less animosity among the athletes. By and large, one can clearly see them cheering for and supporting each other, regardless of their nationalities. Why can’t some of us just enjoy the games? :-)</p>
<p>I think an after the fact medal in the case of the Yang would have been problematic because that would have entailed selective correction of errors. The fact that other controversial judging occurred (the Russian) also complicated things. </p>
<p>I remember the last year my daughter tried out for school cheerleader. She required a late tryout because she badly injured her Achilles and foot during a freak accident at tryout clinics. She was in a boot for the entire mandatory two week delay and could not tumble or jump during that time. The district did not allow an extensions for injury other than the two week delay. At tryout, she did her best and even though she could barely jump and had to pull back her tumbling pass to ‘two to backs’, she scored well enough (BARELY) to make the squad. However, one judge made deductions for what she considered to be inappropriate tryout material (suggestive dance moves). The dance routine was choreographed by graduating seniors and those trying out had absolutely no input into content…so these deductions were something over which she had no control. Because of the deductions she did not make the squad. Our initial reaction was to fight the decision, though the idea of being one of “those” cheerleader parents was horrifying. </p>
<p>The entire squad, student body and faculty were pretty upset on her behalf…she was a topnotch kid, good role model who kept her nose clean, and frankly, our cheer squad was in short supply of that type. But the district dug in and refused to even consider adjusting her score for the unfair deductions. Why? Because three other parents were threatening to sue the school over their daughters’ failed cheer tryouts. Crack the door for one kid and the others come storming through. Their strategy was to barricade the door. FIG, with their refusal to address blatantly unfair judging or scoring errors, is barricading the door. It’s nothing but cowardice, imho. And it shouldn’t be solely up to the athletes to fix the flaws of their sport’s governing body.</p>
<p>(btw…in our daughter’s case, we dropped the whole thing. She rec’d a better offer…one of the yearbook editorships. ;))</p>
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<p>Wow, way to project your personal bias onto others in the world. A more educated guess would be the world could care less if Americans got robbed; I bet most people would be happy to see another country overtaking the US in the medal tally, especially given how unpopular the world sees US these days. By the way, how does underage of just a couple female gymnasts translate to all other Chinese athletes being “pathetic cheaters”?</p>
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<p>You mean we have a judging scandal here in Beijing Olympics? You just won the gold metal for drama.</p>
<p>I don’t like the “holier than thou” attitude of some posters here. Last I checked, the more famous doping lately has been coming from the US, not China–Marion Jones and Floyd Landis… Not to mention many NFL/MLB athletes</p>
<p>^^^ The title of this thread refers to GYMNASTICS. Not other sports. </p>
<p>The question of the Chinese gymnasts’ ages isn’t something that only the USA wonders about. When any country has athletes that it states on websites are 13 years old in November, and then it claims the same athletes are 16 years old only 8 months later, you can’t blame other countries for doubting the truthfulness of that country.</p>
<p>The judging in gymnastics has been very questionable, but in my mind that is NOT China’s fault. Its because no one can judge athletes from their own country, so when you get to the finals there are no judges from the countries with advanced/elite programs (China, US, Russia, etc). The judges are less experienced and have clearly made questionable decisions, the most blatant of which benefitted a Chinese gymnast (not her fault). When a vaulter lands on her knees and puts her hand down, and yet is scored higher than other gymnasts who landed on their feet, there’s a problem. In this case, the problem was NOT China’s fault. But a Chinese athlete benefitted, and when you add this to the age issue it just adds fuel to the fire.</p>
<p>No one doubts that athletes from many countries - including and maybe especially the USA - have doping problems. Believe me, Americans are VERY aware of that - we hear about it constantly, and it has tainted many people’s view of sports in general.</p>
<p>All that said, I think the Chinese have done a wonderful job of hosting these Olympics. The opening ceremonies were beautiful, inspiring and classy. They set a bar that may never be passed. The venues all seem to work well, and I haven’t heard of any complaints from athletes or visitors about food, housing, transportation, etc. The fans have been polite and supportive of all the athletes. They are especially supportive of their own athletes, as they should be, but I haven’t heard of any rudeness toward other country’s athletes. Regardless of how anyone feels about China’s human rights record and their motives for hosting the Olympics, I think it’s obvious that they’ve done a great job as hosts. The games are running smoothly and beautifully. Bravo!</p>
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<p>Sam Lee, before offering a gold metal for drama and accusing others of holding provincial (and biased) views, may I suggest you’d check a few of the international newspapers, especially some that are not exactly the best friennds of the United States. Albeit written in foreign languages, the titles leave few doubts about the contents of the articles. </p>
<p>Fwiw, you can expect a lot more noise from the international press as soon as the reporters who are curently in Beihing are safely back home. </p>
<p>Le Monde: Pol</p>
<p>That’s sort of why I asked my original question about the gymnast who medaled in Sidney who later admitted she was underage but got to keep her medal. When the games are done, and reporters dig evendeeper, ormaybe the girls admit their true ages, do they keep their medals?</p>
<p>There’s really nothing they can do about the presumed underage gymnasts. The state produces passports that state they are 16 years old. This is a legal fact. To dispute it means that they are questioning the legal validity of identifications issued by the PRC, which they aren’t going to do.</p>
<p>They may not have been out of the womb for 16 years, but the proof of age is in the papers issued by the state.</p>
<p>Why is age an issue? If they are among the best, let them compete. Can you imagine a male athlete complaining that his competitor has an unfair advantage due to youth? They would be laughed at. </p>
<p>I think female athletes get way too much protection from competition. And as a result, it lowers the competitive level of their sport and thus the public interest.</p>
<p>Ultimately it is the job of a parent to protect their child from potential harm- such as by excessive strength or weight training at a young age.</p>
<p>When parents abdicate that role and it is left to everyone else, I think that it is appropriate for sports governing bodies to step in and place obstacles so that children with still growing bodies are not rewarded for the same sort of training as grown adults. Beyond the gymnast issue, I am also thinking about the 17 year old weight lifter, for example.</p>
<p>We are overseas and we see 6 channels of Olympics. There are broadcasters but almost no personal interest comments. Every bit of data relates to the athletes previous results, etc- it is unusual to hear any comments on other issues. One did comment yesterday about allowing a Hungarian athlete back in who had served a 2 year ‘drug crime’ exclusion.</p>
<p>I think I miss some of the social/background info and I miss hearing from some of the athletes directly- but not all of it and not all of them!</p>
<p>xiggi,</p>
<p>Please look at the links you provided again. Very few people put down comments, UNLIKE what’s happened here in the US. Your links just prove my point! :rolleyes:</p>
<p>“Why is age an issue? If they are among the best, let them compete. Can you imagine a male athlete complaining that his competitor has an unfair advantage due to youth? They would be laughed at.”</p>
<p>When most male athletes reache puberty, their bodies change in ways that improve his sports performance. Their strength to weight ratio increases.</p>
<p>When most female athletes reach puberty, their bodies change in ways that degrade their sports performance. Their strength to weight ratio decreases. Specifically in gymnastics, their center of gravity also changes (gets lower). These are the two factors that I’m specifically aware of, there may be more. So for gymnastics, pre-pubescence is a huge advantage for girls.</p>
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<p>So there are many gymnasts that are younger and better than Johnson/Liukin in the US? Assuming the Chinese girls were underage, I guess they were really terrible, given such “huge” advantage.</p>
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<p>I don’t see that it was a huge advantage. Shawn and Nastia won 9 medals between them, and each won more than any of the Chinese girls.</p>