Iran

Parent Cafe
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<p>Bullet speaking:</p>

<p>No offense taken razor, just trying to keep the discussion civil and allow everyone thier view before it becomes a "my view is right, and your view is not only wrong but evil, and here’s my example to show how evil you are to have your view (which sometimes happens here on CC with political discussions).</p>

<p>I do agree that we need to keep a close eye on Iran, and it does deserve our strongest warnings that if they act on any of their threats, it would become a very loooong day for them. However, Iran hasn’t acted overtly against any neighbor, YET (with an emphasis on yet), the way the Germans did in the 30s. We can talk strong for now, but the time for action outside of sanctions and international dialoge has not yet come. </p>

<p>That being said, I think the only thing that has stopped Isreal from pre-emptively taking Iran’s belicous rhetoric and bombing it back to the 14th century has been some pretty strong “encouragement” on our part to Isreal asking them to show restraint. We’ll have to see what happens if Iran ever publically anounces it has the capaility to arm their missiles pointed at Isreal with nuclear warheads. We may be dragged into something we really don’t want to be involved in. </p>

<p>So I ask: aren’t a few stern warnings towards Iran appropriate at this time, considering the alternative of Isreal possibly making the decision for us because they don’t see any support from the global community?</p>

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<p>What good?</p>

<p>This kind of black and white thinking is very DANGEROUS.</p>

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<p>??? You’re saying that my pointing out that there is both good and bad, and obviously all shades of grey, in an entire culture, is black and white thinking?</p>

<p>huh? Please explain.</p>

<p>I can only assume you misunderstood my last statement. I was criticizing those who think in black and white terms, who dehumanize entire cultures and think they are ALL bad.</p>

<p>Surely you aren’t making a blanket statement and saying that there is ZERO good in an entire nation, right?</p>

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<p>How so? </p>

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<p>I’m not following. What differentiates the Middle East, from say, Afghanistan? What about Russia? China? Nazi Germany?</p>

<p>Countries make their own decisions and the world reacts accordingly. Applying juvenile processes to global operations is not the proper approach, nor is it logical. </p>

<p>Did you say you were applying to Harvard? :P</p>

<p>I’m kidding, seriously. You’re a very accomplished student. </p>

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<p>Are you suggesting the most powerful country on Earth can’t multi-task? </p>

<p>For those who are unaware, Israel is a strong ally of the US and the western world. Iran has stated openly its desire to see Israel’s destruction (and I’m sure the rest of the Islamic theocracies feel the same way) and has pursued methods in making that happen. Does this not matter? </p>

<p>What about the fact that Iran finances and supports Hezbollah, an internationally recognized terrorist organization? Iran is also a blatant financier of the insurgents in Iraq, who are killing civilians and US soldiers. </p>

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<p>Care to elaborate on this smell? A country known for its deceiving tactics and declarations of war on Western countries and individuals would never ever make such irrational challenges. </p>

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<p>You have nothing to worry about. Israel will have no problem bombing Iran back to the stone age (although they are already pretty close to it anyways XD) if it continues to support anti-Israeli terrorism and nuclear capabilities.</p>

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<p>Good for them. Did they travel to any of known terrorist and radical breeding camps in Mecca?</p>

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<p>Here is what you said:</p>

<p>*
The point is that both good and bad exist in Iran, just as both good and bad exist in most of the world.*</p>

<p>What is the purpose of this? </p>

<p>How does this prove/disprove/justify/validates Iran’s actions?</p>

<p>“Everybody is guilty” right? </p>

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<p>Fallacy if I ever saw one. </p>

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<p>No, what you SAID what clear and blatant black and white thinking. I said that is dangerous.<br>

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<p>I think you are the one who is misunderstood. Nobody is dehumanizing anybody. These are sovereign nations who make decisions and the world reacts. They dehumanize themselves.</p>

<p>Quick Iran facts:</p>

<p>*Governed under total and complete ISLAMIC LAW</p>

<p>*Executes individuals for being: homosexual, committing adultery, sex outside of marriage, stealing, etc…etc.</p>

<p>The judicial process is equally barbaric</p>

<p>Are these not dehumanizing properties?</p>

<p>Basically, all indulgent acts the western world take for granted would never flow well in any Islamic culture, and that is doubly so for Iran.</p>

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<p>Well, to be frank, whatever good is in Iran pales greatly in comparison to the bad. Greatly.</p>

<p>To defend their actions with: “Oh, but they also possess goodness” or “But everyone else has bad qualities” or “Nobody is perfect” or “We are all humans” is absurdity to the highest degree.</p>

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<p>Dear HSisOverrated</p>

<p>I know you have a talent for trying to shoot down people, and using a forum and the internet to satisfy your social needs, however I assure you no sensible person will find funny what you have just said about Mecca.</p>

<p>Out of all the things you have just argued, I think the one on the Holy place has pierced me the most. I am sorry that I hoped to find some sort of dignity in people on the forum, believe me I am used to it at my High School to receive racial slurs and stupidities similar. I am actually deeply saddened you would say something like that, that is why I do not wish to discuss here about it, or anything with you again.</p>

<p>Please do realize what you have done, and think hard before you post something again. Please, next time, call me a terrorist or a suicide bomber, at this point I don;t care. But never again say anything so low about Mecca. It is more important to me than myself, and I acknowledge my stupidity in posting about it with my already vulnerable state being Muslim.</p>

<p>Good luck with your college apps.</p>

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<p>Why would anyone find a terrorist-breeding ground funny?</p>

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<p>That’s too bad. </p>

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<p>I bet. </p>

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<p>I’m sorry to disappoint you with enlightening facts. I know it’s hard to grasp such truths when possessing such strong partisan/religious loyalties, but it’s better to learn now than later.</p>

<p>Zealotry is a hard thing to recover from. </p>

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<p>Please, continue dwelling on my comment about Mecca and reject everything else I said. </p>

<p>I hear Harvard offers a very excellent class in rhetoric. If and when you do get in, I suggest you take it. </p>

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<p>Mecca is a documented and internationally recognized haven for Islamic radicals and terrorism. </p>

<p>Sorry. </p>

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<p>Self-indulgent much? </p>

<p>I can’t believe I actually wasted my time responding and defeating each and every point you made. I hoped you would respond in that same respect…</p>

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<p>Thank you!</p>

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<p>Please do not tell me the source that ‘documented’ Mecca is a hotspot for radicals is from mainstream media, which obviously you so zealously follow. I feel sorry for you. </p>

<p>Oh, and uh, by the way, you’re not cool. I’m sorry, I know its hard to accept. But yeah, I’ve seen people like you all the time. Riding on everyones comments, and coming up with a witty/stupid comeback to elevate yourself. Its unbearable at times, there are other ways to be liked. I doubt anyone here likes you better or thinks more of you because of what you do, if that was your intention.</p>

<p>You can go quote up this whole passage and make stupid, annoying comments about it, I don’t care…</p>

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<p>Precisely. So then why do people speak of Israel as if they were helpless?</p>

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<p>Please clarify. A complete sentence would help.</p>

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<p>On second thought, don’t bother. After reading the rest of your posts, I don’t want to discuss this anymore. You remind me of the people who thought all Japanese were enemies after Pearl Harbor. Pointless to discuss anything with someone with that mentality.</p>

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<p>I’ll be able to make short work of the comments of “HSISOVER…”</p>

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<p>That seems to be a relic of the Cold War if anything. What strategic value is Israel to the United States? Simply it has none. Our foreign policy is dominated by realism and its most prominent thinkers have clearly pointed out that there are no strategic reasons for the US or Europe supporting that nation-state.</p>

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<p>This is America. We should not care. Even if you would like to ignore the obvious I believe you should take a peek at that liberal Henry Kissinger. HE says that nations have to look at the capability and tangible actions of other nations. Rhetoric is irrelevant. And the whole thing about destruction has been taken out of context. You can verify the language yourself if you have any Iranian friends. [DemocracyRising.US</a> - “WIPED OFF THE MAP” - The Rumor of the Century](<a href=“http://democracyrising.us/content/view/736/164/]DemocracyRising.US”>http://democracyrising.us/content/view/736/164/)
However I suspect with the racism implicit in many of your statements that you do not have any friends that aren’t white. </p>

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<p>The last time Hezbollah attacked the United States was over 25 years ago and Hezbollah has never made any credible threats to the US Since.</p>

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<p>I’ll let my intellectual friend answer this one.
[What</a> If Iran Had Invaded Mexico?, by Noam Chomsky](<a href=“chomsky.info : The Noam Chomsky Website”>chomsky.info : The Noam Chomsky Website)
The debate over Iranian interference in Iraq proceeds without ridicule on the assumption that the United States owns the world.
Also I guess it would shock you to know we fund an organization in Iran that is an Islamic socialist group that conducts terrorists activities within Iran. [People’s</a> Mujahedin of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran - Wikipedia”>People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran - Wikipedia)</p>

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If I recall Iran hasn’t unilaterally invaded another country in 250 years. Iran has never declared war on any Western country. When it comes to deception you can go look through the CIA’s history and start with Operation Ajax and then reply back since I expect you are exceedingly ignorant of foreign affairs. [1953</a> Iranian coup d’état - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ajax]1953”>1953 Iranian coup d'état - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>Wait if they were such a serious threat, how could they be bombed back to the Stone Age so easily? Cognitive dissonance.</p>

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<p>Total and complete as opposed to total and incomplete? 99 percent of the nation’s inhabitants are Muslim so what is it of your concern or business? You don’t live there. And I would hardly say Israel is secular since their flag is a freaken Jewish star and its even worse when you realize 1/5 of their residents are not even Jewish.</p>

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<p>I am sure this and other comments about Mecca will get you banned since you yourself have admitted you have troubles with mods, but please stick around. You’re easy to beat in an argument. Regardless, many of the terrorists also worked throughout Europe. The question isn’t whether or not something is happening in Mecca or Madrid, the question should be whether or not the government is helping.</p>

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<p>Wow, I am impressed! I actually agree with a post by gottaloveucla!!!</p>

<p>Well done!</p>

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<p>Here’s a short synopsis of US-Iran relationships for anyone who wants some objectivity. </p>

<p>1953: The democratically-elected Prime Minister of Iran is removed in a coup funded and orchestrated by US and British intelligence. In 2000, former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, during the administration of President Bill Clinton, called it a “setback for democratic government” in Iran.
This is why, outside of the US, the idea that US is the protector of democracy is met with a large degree of cynicism because the PM was replaced with an absolute monarch.</p>

<p>1979: The people of Iran revolted against the absolute monarch, Shah Pahlavi and established a government under Ayatollah Khomeini. The occupation of the U.S. embassy also took place during the 1979 revolution, which caused diplomatic relations to be severed between the new Iranian government and the United States. The role that the U.S. embassy had played in the 1953 coup led the revolutionary guards to suspect that it might be used to play a similar role in suppressing the revolution, some revolutionary guards reported .
Funny if you look at the hostage crisis from this standpoint, it’s much different.</p>

<p>1980-1988: The United States funds and encourages Iraq to invade Iran. The US funds the well-intentioned democrat Saddam Hussein who uses chemical weapons to kill over 800,000 Iranians.</p>

<p>2001-2002: Iran cooperates with the USA in removing the Taliban.</p>

<pre><code>However, briefly after, Bush announces Iran as part of the Axis of Evil and although Iran helped the US end Hussein’s regime. The last five years had Iran surrounded by the US on two of its longest borders.
</code></pre>

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<p>And again! Keep it up, you’re on a roll!</p>

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<p>That may be, but it is still irrelevant. Israel is a strong financial and military ally of both the United States and the western world whether you LIKE it or NOT.</p>

<p>End of discussion.</p>

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<p>Oh, I’m sorry. Here I thought America was interested in actual progressive goals in the Middle East. Stupid thing, I guess, to support the ONLY progressive and successful country in the bunch.</p>

<p>By prominent thinkers, are you referring to Noam Chomsky? XD</p>

<p>Your “most prominent thinkers” comment is very authority-appealing…imo.</p>

<p>FYI: Many European countries are very invested in Israel both economically and socially. It the most internationally connected country in the Middle East, housing many Western-sourced cooperations.</p>

<p>But of course, that holds no strategic value. </p>

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<p>Um, uh? </p>

<p>This is America, we do as we please. </p>

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<p>Haha, you cite rhetoric…but hey, look at this:</p>

<p>*
Before we get to the infamous remark, it’s important to note that the “quote” in question was itself a quote— hey are the words of the late Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of the Islamic Revolution. *</p>

<p>YOUR SOURCE!</p>

<p>The comment came from the mouth of Iran’s TRUE leader. And I’m 100% certain the rest of Iran’s government agrees, or else they would say otherwise.</p>

<p>Lest you forget, Iran is the primary financier of ANTI-ISRAEL
terrorism. There, I bolded it for your pleasure. </p>

<p>Nice opinionated site btw…
[q]
The last time Hezbollah attacked the United States was over 25 years ago and Hezbollah has never made any credible threats to the US Since.
[/q]</p>

<p>[Great</a> Satan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_to_America]Great”>Death to America - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>What?</p>

<p>Are you out of your mind?</p>

<p>Hezbollah has been waging war against Israel since day one, supported by Iran of course. </p>

<p>And Hezbollah has pledged to continue its fight against all things infidel…<em>checks yesterdays news</em> yep, so deal.</p>

<p>You are aware Hezbollah isn’t the only terrorist organization Iran and Syria back, right?</p>

<p>Where do you think all these insurgents in Iraq come from? Paradise?? Money doesn’t go on trees, and neither do terrorists. </p>

<p>Someone has to provide the weapons, training, and conditioning…and that someone is Iran.</p>

<p>Do you deny?</p>

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<p>Ah, I’d figured you bring up the senile crazy man that is Noam Chomsky.</p>

<p>I’ll direct you to the wonderful negatives of your God:</p>

<p>[Criticism</a> of Noam Chomsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_Noam_Chomsky]Criticism”>Noam Chomsky - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>Here is Alan Dershowitz:</p>

<p>[Alan</a> Dershowitz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“Alan Dershowitz - Wikipedia”>Alan Dershowitz - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>Enjoy.<br>

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<p>Uhh…good for them?

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<p>No, it’s only provided resources for terrorists organizations that have attacked Western assets and nations. </p>

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<p>So what?</p>

<p>What are you trying to prove???</p>

<p>Stop hinting dude. </p>

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<p>Culturally they are in the Stone Age. Just like Iraq, right before Israel got rid of their reactors. </p>

<p>These countries are still warped in the 6th century. </p>

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<p>Sympathizer?</p>

<p>I think yes.</p>

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<p>Uh?</p>

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<p>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAH</p>

<p>HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH</p>

<p>Wow, ■■■■■ ■■■■■ your boat!</p>

<p>Iran is a TOTALITARIAN state. I couldn’t care less about Iran and its inhabitants, but when they start making threats against others nations it poses a problem.</p>

<p>There radical government is icing on the cake, and deserves to be mentioned. </p>

<p>I was merely stating facts. I’m sorry if it disagrees with your partisan ideology. </p>

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[quote[
You don’t live there.
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<p>So?

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<p>If you got Paris, and then go to Haifa, you won’t see much of a difference.<br>
You can criticize the government, make fun of who you want, COMMIT <em>gasp</em> adultery, play video games, drive and wear bikinis (women), gamble, etc…etc…</p>

<p>Please, this is beyond ■■■■■■■■. </p>

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<p>Why would that get me banned?!!?</p>

<p>It’s a known fact, even recognized by secular muslims. </p>

<p>What is wrong with you?</p>

<p>Mecca is the perfect haven for terrorism. No foreigners are aloud and no non-muslims are allowed.</p>

<p>Cha-ching. </p>

<p>You’d have to be very intelligent person to rationalize something like Mecca not being a radical muslim haven (most of ME is anyways). </p>

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So?</p>

<p>edit: </p>

<p>This hilarious. </p>

<p>fun fact:</p>

<p>I’ve been to Israel and my Aunt is Iranian.</p>

<p>I’ve had more personal experience with both countries than either of you.</p>

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<p>What it boils down to is that I believe America should act in America’s interests and you believe that America should act in the interests of Israel. Nothing you argue indicates Iran is of any threat to this nation.</p>

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Go look up realism which is the base of America’s foreign policy and you’ll know who the prominent thinkers are.</p>

<p>[John</a> Mearsheimer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mearsheimer]John”>John Mearsheimer - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>Ya and if you read the rest of what you would see what it translates to.
:The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."</p>

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You should have read further.</p>

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<p>Israel is not the West. The West is Christian. Israel is Jewish. The United States is a capitalist, secular country. Israel is Jewish and theocratic. </p>

<p>Laregly what it boils down to is that Israel ‘feels’ threatened by the United States and [some] Jews and far-right Christians who influence policy wish to sacrifice American soldiers to do the bidding of a country that does not deserve foreign aid from this state. You made it fairly obvious that Israel’s interests are above the US’s interests in your ideology. Furtheremore I line-by-line discredited everything in your posts while you ignored half of my points and responded with exclaimations and OMG OMG. I reccomend your sharpen your skills.</p>

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<p>gottaloveucla,</p>

<p>Bullet here.</p>

<p>Although it kills me to do so, there is a part of HSisOverated’s arguement that I have to somewhat agree with. (But I do remember seeing just a few days ago a certain thread on this very site (Parent’s cafe, emphasis on Parent’s) started by HSisOverarated called “the one where I apologize”, where he promises to tone down the rhetoric and be more civil in his posts. Obviously, this sentiment lasted as long as most teen-ager’s promises, about 4 days) </p>

<p>OK, on to my point. Isreal DOES have strategic value at this time to the United States. Why? Well, if we look back at when the Isreali state was created, we mostly supported this tiny country surrounded by enemies out of collective guilt from the World War II allies due to our late actions to prevent the holocaust (something our friend in Iran Im-on-a-jihad flatly denies as happening). Some pretty dumb actions on ours and Great Britian’s part on how the borders of that whole country came in to being, with little to no regard to consequences (Pardon us, Old boy. But would you mind leaving your country so we can put these nice chaps in there instead. Right Oh!). We became the defacto big brother of this country (we Americans tend to root for the underdogs). This especially became the case as Isreal’s Arab neighbors turned to the Soviet Union for “advice”, financial help, and arms. The flare ups in the middle east during the 60s and 70s became the main playground of the Cold War stand-off, with Isreal representing the West and their surrounding neighbors representing th Soviets. We were not about to let America and Western values lose to the Soviets in this “tiny dirt strip of little significance outside of religion”. (please excuse me if anyone finds that offensive, just a poor analogy on my part). The flare-ups betwen the two even served as a rather convenient “proving ground” for our latest military technology. We were more than happy to provide that technology.</p>

<p>But why is Isreal important strategically to us now? One word: oil. Now wait before everyone chimes in with the “But Isreal has no oil!”, let me explain. What Isreal has now is the most “Western style” government and population in that Muslim dominated sector of the World. It also has a large jewish population in the United States dedicated to seeing to it’s survival and support (no debate on good or bad merits of this, just stating fact). But what Isreal has that is more important to us is the “surrounded by the enemy determined to kill us” feeling (rightly so considering Im-on-a-jihad’s publically stated intentions), and a rather well equipped military more than willing to act on the threat (up to an including the use of nulear weapons). Now, why do we support Isreal? Simply because if they were to start a war based on feeling threatened, the world’ s largest oil supply would be the first thing threatened in return. We support Isreal for a lot of moral reasons (their being the country in that region closest to us in values is a prime one), but protecting this vital resource is the main one now. (not about to get into the whole “dependency on oil and all the oil companies are evil” debate now).</p>

<p>So, it is correct to say Isreal is vitally important strategically to America, and one of the things I don’t agree with RP concerning his foreign policy views. We NEED to be there to referee the situation, because our economy is so dependent on the resources from that area.</p>

<p>Now, HSisOverrated. See how easy it is to argue a point with logic and thoughful reasoning instead of the little one-upmanship game of “quote and ridicule” you oh so enjoy playing? Tell you what, why don’t you wait until you at least get your HS diploma and a little life experience under your belt before you play your anonymous-internet emotions baiting game again. I dare you to turn your first “argue a stance” paper at college using your standard “debating” techniques; you’ll not like the outcome of that. Play nice, state your case with logic and reason, and you won’t sound so childish and ridiculous on future points. I believe you owe an apology again, this time at least to Akahmed.</p>

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<p>It always blows my mind whenever I see people making statements about places they’ve never been, or about people they’ve never met, as if it were fact.</p>

<p>The fact is that we all choose to believe what we believe. Those who question all sources of info, and cross-reference that info, and remain open-minded as to the accuracy of that info, remain in a better position to get at least nearer to the truth…being that it’s probably not possible to have 100% all of the truth.</p>

<p>Those who blindly believe what the mainstream media feeds them and never bother to question it…and then insist that they have the truth, scorning those who disagree…are just showing their arrogance and ignorance.</p>

<p>(cross-posted with bullet - this was directed to HSisOverrated, not bullet)</p>

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<p>Well said…</p>

<p>Oh, and, sorry for intruding on the parents cafe like this, :slight_smile:
The topic just interests me,</p>

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<p>bullet: Of course oil is the main factor (although it could be argued that religious superstition is an equally important factor - and I mean biblical superstition - there are neocons in power whose motivation seems to be orchestrating ‘Armageddon’ to fulfill biblical prophecy, and THAT is some scary stuff). But something’s gotta give soon, as the world’s oil supply has peaked and the world cannot sustain its dependence on oil much longer.</p>

<p>Even if it hadn’t peaked, keeping the machine going (modern lifestyle) is not a moral justification for bloodshed.</p>

<p>Ron Paul is the only candidate with enough integrity to question the very premise of how our lifestyle affects foreign policy.</p>

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<p>Leal,</p>

<p>I have to respectfully disagree with you on this point (again, HSisOverated, see how easy that was to be polite yet disagree?).</p>

<p>I do agree we need to ween America off of the oil addiction, searching for new and better sources. It makes sense and it removes the only strategic reason we meddle in the Middle East’s affairs. Nothing would make me happier than to see the Saudi Royalty have to come begging to us for a change, as we now find their countries interests irrelevant to us.</p>

<p>But this is still a long way away. To disregard ou connection to this vital resouce now would be fool-hardy. The implications to our society if the oil source was denied to us have too many factors of significance to discuss in this forum. I for one like the fact that I can sit in a heated home and type away on my computer (because my house has electric power), while sipping a soda that only costs 50 cents because the factory that made it had the power to do so, and th etrucks that delivered it could get to my supermarket. </p>

<p>Moral justification for bloodshed? The human side of me hopes not, but the realist finds it ma have to be so. Good enough reason to stay involved and protect the global economy from an all-too-real threat? Definitely. Leal, it’s easy to say, “we don’t want to be there becuase it’s hard and not nice”. It takes a true leader to understand that wehave to do the hard thing and stay involved. I like a lot of things RP stands for, but his stance on getting out of the Isreal and the middle east, though heartfelt, is not one of them…</p>

<p>Now, got to go. I promised my kids I would participate in that global economy and take them to see “Cloverfield” today. Bullet</p>