There’s that stats thing I was talking about, dstark. They don’t support it, at least not in the manner you’ve framed it. Might have voted for those who perpetuate it. Might not have, since their only real participation is as the real cash cows for the sustenance & luxuries handed to those who did.
What’s amazing to me is the complaints about the income disparity. You set up a system to keep the poor mollified - cash, etc. - and then can’t understand why they don’t grab a pitchfork and let the cash out of a Soros or his peers.
You really need to cut the money off and let nature take it’s course. Hopefully, they won’t fork the cows - the one’s with a little more money than them but nowhere near what Soros spend on advocacy.
I absolutely agree with you, poets… and that makes me even more depressed. It means that many countries which not only didn’t have that original guide but were often founded and continue to operate on principles directly contradictory to those rights have achieved equality goals before we have. An example is Ireland, a firmly Catholic country, legalizing marriage equality before us.
I find it interesting that nobody on here has mentioned the background of the author of this article. David Niose has been the president of the American Humanist Association and the Secular Coalition of America. He is completely anti-religion, and loathes anything that resembles the religious right. Isn’t it suspect that his theory that what is wrong in America is because of the know nothing religious right? Gosh, maybe if we could just jail everyone who expressed religious leanings, and let the ultra smart atheists do our thinking for us, all would be right in America.
Sure, there are some big mouths idiots that are spouting things off to get attention, but so what? Is it really that smart to focus in on those people, and blame them for all our problems?
That one percent is laughing all the way to the bank, too. They are the real power brokers of the world (not just the US)"
"ucbalumus wrote:
One probably needs to be in the top 0.1% or even higher for one to have the money to be a real power broker beyond the local level."
No kidding. I can tell you that the one percent here on cc is undoubtedly laughing hysterically at the thought that they are the real power brokers of the world. They are nothing but the tax donkeys, paying much of the taxes, with none of the power.
That’s one of the big problems that America faces. Getting suckered into being divided by income, race, sex, background. What fools we are to fall for it.
I’m jumping back in without having yet read most of the intervening posts since this am but I strongly agree with on post #60@poetsheart, when you talk about the exceptional nature of our founding documents and ideals as a nation. We do not always realize them but I love that it is always understood to be a work in progress towards a more perfect union. I wish that we didn’t shoot ourselves in the foot by turning out backs on improvements such as infrastructure in the name of proving that we are already the best. I love our ability to change and grow with the touchstones of our founding principles and those freedoms have allowed great innovation and individual growth and contribution. However, collectively as a nation I feel like we fall into an opposite pattern where we are reluctant to come out and commit to doing big things wholeheartedly and with a long vision.
Re: “maybe if we could just jail everyone who expressed religious leanings, and let the ultra smart atheists do all the thinking for us.”
I looked up from wiki:
“In 2007 Niose initiated a contest sponsored by the Secular Coalition for America that resulted in Rep. Pete Stark (D-CA) becoming the first member of Congress to openly identify as an atheist.”
If the above about Rep. Pete Stark is the fact, it will be a while (if ever) before we would jail everyone who expresses religious leanings in this country.
I value the balance of power betwen the right and the left in general, between the have and the have-not, between the more religious and the less religeous (or even atheists.) that is, I do not like one side could oppress the other side. If the both sides could sit down and communicate and/or negotiate with each other, it could be a good sign of progress.
Somehow I often sense the division of belief between different generations here as well.
On many college campuses, those who express their religious leanings could run the risk of being ridiculed these days. So, who knows, this day may eventually come if the right keeps losing their ground on college campus.
“However, collectively as a nation I feel like we fall into an opposite pattern where we are reluctant to come out and commit to doing big things wholeheartedly and with a long vision.”
I always get suspicious of politicians talking about doing Big Things. It generally comes down to the desire to spend a whole lot of money, with little accountability, when we are over our heads in debt. Been doing a lot of driving, all sorts of places around the country. Things don’t look like they are coming apart at the seams. Are a lot of expensive road projects going to make all the difference? How about schools? Does pouring money into the school systems make all the difference in the world? Some of the worst school systems are the most heavily funded ones. Didn’t we just spend hundreds of billions of dollars on “Shovel Ready Projects”? Did that make much difference at all? What about all the money going to green projects? Has that slowed down global warming? How about the efforts to get a carbon trading market? Is that going to do anything but line the pockets of the already wealthy?
Perhaps some of the Big Things that we can do are things that don’t require spending massive amounts of money that we don’t have. Perhaps some of the Big Things that might help are ideas, not just making certain groups of people wealthy. Because when you start spending the bucks on the Big Things, there are wealthy people ready to profit, that those who direct the funds from the over taxed taxpayer, will direct the money towards. Not that I have anything against profit, but it’s the same old crap, over and over again. Just shuffling money from the taxpayers to the pockets of their friends and donors, with very little actually getting done.
Not sure where you live @ busdriver11 but if you have spent any time driving in the mid-Atlantic region and New England then you would know our bridges, roads, tunnels, etc. are not only crumbling but way overburdened. Sitting in traffic causes pollution and wastes resources both in terms of human energy and resources and fossil fuels, costs to society that are not usually factored in when looking at the cost/benefit analysis of undertaking projects. Less waste of fossil fuels equates to a better environment and less reliance on imported oil, more economic autonomy, greater national security, better quality of life…I could go on.
I live in the PNW, doschicos, and things are looking pretty good here, actually. They are raising the gas tax to one of the highest in the US, in order to fix things even more. I certainly can’t speak for everywhere in the US, but honestly, I can’t think that spending a massive amount of money for construction projects (and didn’t we already just do this?) is going to fix America. It certainly would help the construction business and fix those crumbling roads and bridges that you’re talking about, but will it fix all of our problems?
@busdriver11 is correct in that in our little corner things are much more spiffy than in many other places. My municipality has new colored, textured ADA curb cuts at every single crosswalk and they have moved on to reconfiguring every intersection with flashing yellow turn lights. We are gilding the lily at this point relative to most places that I’ve been. Those little projects serving particular constituencies are much easier to get done than anything that requires the east and west of our state to agree. We are, however, fairly blessed to be in a place where the vast middle of the population can sort of agree on goals if not exactly how to get there. We can still trust that most people want what’s best for our city and region and would like it to continue to be a wonderful place. There are states and municipalities that seem to have a culture of such craven self-interest that one can’t trust that people actually WANT things to work. We, in the Seattle area, are fairly utilitarian and expect things to work and get done for the public good (however you define that).
By “big things” I was not meaning a giant, gratuitous money dump I was meaning things like broadband connectivity, solidifying the electric grid and other such basics.
It’ll create jobs even outside of the construction business, it will create more economic means of transporting goods across our country (the majority of which is done by trucking), investing in green energy not only creates jobs and a better environment and the related economic and security benefits I previously mentioned, but it also creates innovation as we’ve already seen. We did do some spending but that was a drop in the bucket in terms of infrastructure spending. We haven’t seen massive spending on infrastructure since the 1950s.
Given that gas prices have dropped substantially in the past year or so, IMO raising the gas tax to provide needed infrastructure is a smart move. Despite the higher taxes, my guess is the price at the pump is still one of the lowest rates you’ve seen in years and still lower than you’d find in much of the world. Additionally, I think the types of changes people are referencing (hoping for?) above would be targeting those well above most of our income levels. What is needed is a fundamental shift in the power and tax base and more cooperation across the aisle which could result in long term projects like infrastructure not only being addressed but adequately funded.
Then there are issues like the electric grid like saintfan mentions, water & sewer, etc. And the need to spend the money efficiently and get rid of some often unnecessary pork barrel projects.
Sounds like you folks in Seattle are ahead of a lot of the country and have a decent level of cooperation at the local level which is needed on a national scale.
I feel America lost its way by abandoning both infrastructure and pure scientific research. Former public/private partnerships are mostly private, and research is generally meant to increase profits. We don’t know where future advancements will come, but we do know that the next great thing will require too much failure for a quarterly profit. For 15 years or so we focused on war/terrorism and turned our backs on emerging markets and innovation. We let politics get in the way of our nation’s best interests.
I would love to see our infrastructure improved and provisions requiring US products to be used whenever possible. Using US Steel benefits the economies in some depressed areas of the country. It increases local economies not just in manufacturing but housing, service industries, etc. I would prefer to see tax incentives for US job creation and a reduction of tax benefits for those companies that move jobs overseas. It isn’t that we shouldn’t work in a global economy, but there should be financial benefit to American workers.
True power brokers do not pay taxes; taxes are for the other people. And, real power brokers do not earn paychecks either, and have no need to check into any office, on any day, unless they want to.
It is not a myth; it simply a difference in ideology that is woefully misrepresented by this quote.
No conservative I know talks or even insinuates equal outcomes. Maybe some RINOs might, but I do not deal with them. Therefore, your assuming equal outcomes statement is made up as if conservatives think that.
At its core, equal outcomes is just another term of socialism, and ultimately, for stagnation. One cannot have a prosperous and growing economy for long without inequality of products and thus inequality of the producers of said products. Thus, inequality is a good thing, as there will always be a better product and a superior service in the future. And the person who creates that better product or service should benefit more than the people who did not think of or produce that product. No high-level math required to understand this concept.
Re “by their bootstraps, is not only wrong…” - What most conservatives believe is each person has the opportunity to be as successful as he can be and to make a living without depending on government if he: 1) stays in school, 2) gets a job, any job, after high school, 3) gets married, 4) does not have kids before getting married, and 5) stays married. The poverty rate for people who do those 5 things is the single digits and over 50% make it solidly in the middle class. The poverty rate for people who violate two of the provisions is upwards of 35% and violate all five and poverty rate is over 50%. Not hard to figure what to do not to be poor.
And this is the bare minimum that is achievable with those 5 rules being followed. Put in extra effort re college, vocational training etc. and the poverty rate is essentially zero.
Most important, the quote above misses the basic scientific fact that since not everyone has equal abilities, there will never be equal outcomes. So, not sure what idiot thinks any outcome would be equal between two different people, much less many different people.
“Equal outcomes” is a liberal talking point that assumes all people are the same and would do the same given the same resources. That is just sheer stupidity because even a 5 year-old knows he or she is he smartest or the best at something in the room and expects to be on top accordingly for his / her superior effort and skill.
In overall contrast, I believe “it is dangerous” to try to sell people falsely on the erroneous fact that everyone should expect similar outcomes to others, as that is a flat out scientific falsity that is not possible. Some are smarter, more resourceful, and more productive than others, and this equal outcome expectation nonsense only gives people an excuse when they are not as successful as others - with the result being jealousy and envy, an overall net negative for society.
Emphasis was mine, because it is just so very sad. And unfortunately, even many that can name a few of those rights have little understanding of what the words actually mean and how they apply to our civil society.
So very, very true. I wrote the post about the one percent just before turning out the lights and going to bed. It was only after lying in bed and waiting for sleep to come that I thought how laughable it sounded, numbers wise. Only those who are capable of buying and selling people at will, who can buy pawns they can dress up as kings, have that kind of power, and no, they definitely don’t depend on salaries or paychecks. They are in the leagues of unimaginable wealth, and with that wealth, they wield almost unimaginable power.
“By “big things” I was not meaning a giant, gratuitous money dump I was meaning things like broadband connectivity, solidifying the electric grid and other such basics.”
I agree. Unfortunately, I don’t know a way to get this done so it doesn’t turn into a massive money dump. Are there any honest people left in the world? So much is decided by those who are buying votes, obtaining donations, keeping their power.
“Then there are issues like the electric grid like saintfan mentions, water & sewer, etc. And the need to spend the money efficiently and get rid of some often unnecessary pork barrel projects.”
What can we do when politicians write the tax code? That seems like insanity to me. They will never get rid of what keeps them in control, and lines their pockets.
Sounds like you folks in Seattle are ahead of a lot of the country and have a decent level of cooperation at the local level which is needed on a national scale."
I think, for the most part, they do a good job around here. A big part of it though, is that the economy is doing well in our neck of the woods, and we have money to spend. Also, the balance between two parties. One side is salivating to tax and spend at all times, no matter what, and the other side is fighting against every possible expenditure or tax. Somehow, it manages to work.
“So very, very true. I wrote the post about the one percent just before turning out the lights and going to bed. It was only after lying in bed and waiting for sleep to come that I thought how laughable it sounded, numbers wise. Only those who are capable of buying and selling people at will, who can buy pawns they can dress up as kings, have that kind of power, and no, they definitely don’t depend on salaries or paychecks. They are in the leagues of unimaginable wealth, and with that wealth, they wield almost unimaginable power.”
Thank you for reconsidering that. I grow so weary of hearing about the one percent, the divide and conquer, the them against us. In reality, the vast majority of those people are doctors, lawyers, small business owners, dual income professionals, people who feel they only have control of their own lives (if even that).
