Is Anti-intellectualism To Blame For America's Problems?

I agree, @stugace , but unfortunately for the last 35 years, we have been told that education is “wasteful government spending.” So not only is there a lot less high-quality education available now especially to the lower SESs, but almost all education – from Pre-K to Ivy League – is sneered at.

You’re a college student, right? Want to hear something that’ll break your heart? When I was in college in the mid-70s, my tuition was less than $600/year at a public flagship. That was near the end of a 30-year period when Americans saw education as an investment in the future, and understood that the more educated the population was, the better the country would do.

@LasMa,

Yes, I am a college student. However, I’m not the average student who comes from a well-to-do family. I come from an extremely low-income household and have had numerous barriers in my way and, unfortunately, some of those barriers will wait for me after college when I look for a job in my field. For students like myself, a free, 2-year secondary education would be invaluable. Although, I’m attending my state’s flagship for personal reasons.

As for the cost, I was aware that college was more affordable in the earlier years, but didn’t know it was that low. Would that $600 back then still be $600 today? If so, that is indeed disheartening. I’m guessing room and board was about the same as it is today. Regardless, the tuition is the biggest chunk for a vast majority of schools.

So what is the cause of America’s problem?

Well, tonight we went on a boat ride to Lake Union, to watch the fireworks at Gasworks park. The night started out with the guy flying his drone carrying the American Flag, and it crashed into the water. Everyone looked for it, but couldn’t find it (apparently it didn’t float). He was disappointed, but had a good attitude, because he gave us all a good show. The fireworks were wonderful, the night was beautiful. Everyone was happy, considerate, and having a great time. Smiling people, helping each other, nobody being obnoxious, and everyone getting along and doing what it took to give everyone else space for their boats. Cheering and screaming when the helicopter brought the flag overhead. Sharing the night together and having a great time.

Didn’t seem like America had any problems tonight, at least in my neck of the woods.

“As for the cost, I was aware that college was more affordable in the earlier years, but didn’t know it was that low. Would that $600 back then still be $600 today? If so, that is indeed disheartening.”

No. That amount in the mid seventies would be about $2600 today. However, good luck getting into any public flagship for that price today. In fact, good luck getting into any public flagship today, at any price. They have far more applicants than they can accommodate, and can raise the price as much as they want, without worrying about filling spots…

busdriver, as it happens, my alma mater is UW, and in-state tuition this year is more than $12,000. So yes, far out of line with inflation. And far out of line with a lot of middle-class budgets, which was not the case in the mid 70s. My middle-class parents put 3 kids through college without anyone taking a penny in loans. (My brothers went to WSU, which was about the same price.) None of my college friends took loans. It just wasn’t done back then because it wasn’t necessary. I did have one friend who was low income, and she got some kind of grant from the state and got her degree debt-free along with the rest of us.

We were still in GI-Bill mode back then, so that anyone who wanted a college education and was willing to do the work could get one. And no one was forced to take on crippling debt to get it. Like I said, for 30 years, the taxpaying public was willing to invest in educating its people. That came to a screeching halt in the 80s.

Glad you got to see the Lake Union fireworks tonight. :slight_smile: That brings back memories.

Unfortunately Las Ma, if you were not aware college was an option, it wasn’t.
I began attending a community college after taking my GED when I was 18.I was receiving dependents benefits, but had to also work full time in order to pay expenses. I had no idea what financial aid was, and was paying tuition and fees out of my social security benefits.
I soon had to quit, as I couldn’t keep up with school after working till 11pm.( and also because a close friend who was supporting me on campus & off, died suddenly. I had experienced several meaningful deaths in a row, at a young age, ( 17 is young awright?), and I guess I was trying to regroup. (They didn’t have outreach for support services on campus like they do now.)

Just wanted to point out 20,30,40 years ago, life was not some bowl of cherries, even in suburban Seattle.

35 years ago, life was not a bowl of cherries in Seattle, for sure. Fortunately, there were options. I remember that my parents paid about $250 for my first quarter of community college, and I paid for the next two quarters with my waitressing job. The next three years, I think, cost about $17K/year at Seattle U. I wasn’t even allowed to apply to the U of W, as they would only accept you if you were a freshman, or a junior. One year at a cc was not allowed. Thankfully the Air Force gave me a scholarship, as no way could my parents or I have afforded 17K per year.

Yet it would have been very doable had I gone to cc for two years, then the U of W. But the USAFA doesn’t accept applicants who are just going to cc, so life would have been completely different. I can’t see how anyone can afford going to a private college now, unless they are on scholarship or their parents are paying for it. And paying for public university would be pretty costly too. The only way to do it on your own, seems to be to go to cc for two years, then a public university (and probably take on debt). Live with your parents if you can.

For me, the only reason I’ll probably go into +$15,000 in debt after finishing college will be room and board costs. If I could commute, I’d have less than $5,000 in debt.

Not as a counter argument or anything like that, because I agree that in-state tuitions are far out of line with what they used to be relative to the average income. But just to be clear, for virtually all state schools (as far as I know) the percentage of their budgets that come from the state has dropped considerably. Typical cases are that the states provided 30-40% of their budget needs in those years you were paying $600 ($2600 in today’s dollars), and now provides 5-10% of the budget. So while tuition most likely still would have exceeded inflation to some degree due to other cost pressures, it would not be anywhere near the hyperinflationary rate you cite if the state was still providing a similar percentage of the budget.

Just to provide some context for the statement. Now back to regular programming…

I found an old tuition receipt from my cc days (mid 1970’s) and it was just over $100 per semester for 12 credit hours!
I was able to pay that from my part time job. I transferred to a small private university which was quite affordable even for a middle class family with 3 kids in college (i.e. my family). No loans.

EK - It was not easy for everyone, my parents paid for tuition, room and board after my transfer but some of my friends had to pay it all by themselves. But it was possible to “work your way through college” by attending cc then transferring to a state school. Many of my friends did. I can’t see how anyone can do that now.

I agree with LasMa that the states no longer invest in higher education like they used to.

“I don’t recall saying anything derogatory about my - or your - memory skills. Of course, If you’d be so kind as to refresh my memory as to what post it was, I’d appreciate it.”

No you didn’t. It was my impression that you were saying something derogatory about the masses. If I’m wrong about that, I apologize.

“Why would I care why the Senator brought a snowball to work? My opinion, whatever it was, wouldn’t detract from anything I’ve said. Niose was the one that found some sort of meaning, maybe validation, in it. I don’t.”

No one, including you, has to care - but he didn’t bring it in just for jollies. He had a point to make, no? Anyone who thinks he wasn’t trying to make a certain point, lacks basic thinking skills, imo.

Hasn’t the percentage of high school grads attending college gone way up since the '70’s? I think it’s something like 60% now versus 10% then. If people are dumb now, it doesn’t appear to be for lack of trying.

Peoples’ inability to name the VP probably stems from them feeling that they can’t do anything about it, so they don’t care all that much. They are going to vote for the President they want, and he/she comes with a running mate they can’t do anything about. They’re not going to vote for a different President based on the VP name. They can’t do anything about the VP becoming Pres if something happens either.

“They are going to vote for the President they want, and he/she comes with a running mate they can’t do anything about. They’re not going to vote for a different President based on the VP name.”

That is not necessarily true. Recently, there were people who didn’t vote for a certain Presidential candidate because of their choice of the VP running mate. There have been papers written on it. You can google if you are interested.

CPI inflation suggests that $600 in 1975 is like $2,652.10 today.
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=600&year1=1975&year2=2015

Those who don’t know the VP’s name when they vote, or those who don’t know it when they don’t vote, richly deserve whatever treatment they get. That said, you are wrong - I was commenting on the irrelevancy of keeping up with who the VP is after he/she is elected. There isn’t a mulligan.

Who said he wasn’t trying to make a point? I’ve just said that his choice of visual aid is irrelevant to the validity of it. That Niose, amongst others, seems to believe the visual aid one leg of a scientific stool, suggests he’s confused. Either that or a psychology major.

Those people are probably the ones who can name the VP. There are some who can do that.

Oops… seems I’m the confused one - Niose is an attorney.

What a surprise. :wink:

The number of people going to college has gone up from the 1970’s, though the concentration of college graduates is not equal, in some states it is around 15%, in others it approaches 50. More importantly, the other factor in that is just how many ‘colleges’ we have today, what once were business schools now call themselves colleges, and then you have the growth of for profit and online schools as well, and it is hard to tell if they have caused the population to me more educated, or simply are marks on a piece of paper. It is pretty sad when people get through college, that usually have general ed courses, yet for example, when you give them the text of the Bill of Rights cannot tell you the meaning and depth of those rights or give you a general idea of how they have been applied. Supposedly they ask college graduates in polls to say when the civil war happened, and a basic description of the why’s of it, and many of them can’t and so forth.

As far as the cost of college, it has gone up tremendously since the 1970’s and 1980’s, and more importantly, financial aid has been slashed since then, to get federal aid these days you need to be pretty damn poor, and the colleges themselves have substituted loans for the aid they used to give, all while raising tuition at multiples of the COA. When I went to NYU in the early 80’s, the total bill for tuition, room and board was a little over 10k, and I had significant aid (from the school), I was from a middle class background, my dad was an engineer. These days NYU’s total package is pushing towards 70K, and their aid unless you are pretty poor is pretty much nonexistent (and as an Alumnus of the place, I would tell any perspective students to either make the push and try an Ivy, the difference in standards is not that big a gap these days, or go to a school that is good and gives you a decent aid package. The Ivies are much better with aid, and NYU simply isn’t worth the cost IMO, it is way, way overselling what it is, and it is putting on a big show while not delivering on what it gives for the money). In the past 30-35 years schools have become expensive, states have slashed funding for the state schools, especially the state flagships, and also have increased recruiting of kids from out of state and foreign countries, to get kids who pay full freight (there was a long article not long ago about the state flagship schools, and how they themselves are becoming more and more elite, rather than trying to educate the best and brightest of their own state), in many ways they have become not for profit businesses, where branding and markets and prestige matter more than making sure they educate as many kids as possible. Much of the increased costs, which conservatives are right about, have been in administrators and rock star heads of schools, with the salaries to match, and in building expensive facilities and hiring rock star faculty as well (NYU just spent umpteen millions buying townhouses n NYC, to be used to attract rock star faculty that will ‘put them on the map’). Conservatives point out, rightfully,that these schools build up endowments, but then use it, instead of in aid to students, to do the kind of things I am talking about (conservatives do share some of the blame, it has been conservatives arguing that financial aid is a ‘frill’ we cannot afford, and have been one of the reasons spending on state schools has been slashed, they have more than helped making colleges more and more unaffordable).

There is another factor, that in large part kids these days are more and more encouraged to learn ‘only the important things’, so we have kids going through schools that rely on standardized tests, and their knowledge is basically “learn this for some stupid test, then forget it”. Likewise , in college, even when taking the general ed courses, the kids tend to take classes that might be’useful’, so for example economics in some programs can count towards a philosophy requirement (it did at NYU back in the early 80’s), so kids will all want to take that, instead of a course let’s say on political theory. I took courses in history and in a course called “Power and Politics” that was pretty eye opening (the power in politics course was taught by two teachers, one of whom was the stereotype of the ‘liberal mush head’ Reagan would call them, the other, well, somewhere off to the right of Attila the Hun, but both were very, very good at teaching, were open about their biases, and made kids think).

We have this idea in society these days that only certain things are worth learning, mostly ‘practical’ stuff (kind of like the 3 “Rs” of primary education), so even college kids are coming out not knowing a lot of things, which is sad. It is funny, I used to think some of the comp sci courses I took for my degree were useless, that they were about arcane number theory, theoretical constructs, or with things like computer architecture, irrelevant to what I would be doing. What I realized later on that in their daily lives, few programmers outside system engineers worry about, for example, writing that efficient sort algorithm and use the analysis of algorithms methodologies the teach to see how well it works (with all the sort routines out there in any language you can name, would be idiotic to remake the wheel), or care about boolean algebra in their daily work, but knowing those things helps with other things, often unrelated to what you directly are doing, it is one of the differences between someone with an associates degree from a tech school and someone with a CS degree.

"Oops… seems I’m the confused one - Niose is an attorney.

What a surprise’

Good one. And his interest is in blaming religion, not people who are so uneducated that they don’t know the name of the VP (unless they’re religious, of course).