is colgate prestigious?

Colleges & Universities Colgate University
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<p>Tufts wasn’t ranked as high as it is now in the 90s. It was ranked lower. At times, it was outside top 25. The difference was greater back then. I have done some research on Tufts before and in the late 90s, Tufts’ SAT average was in the low 1300s while NU’s was in the high 1300s. You sure you didn’t mistake NU as WashU? Or you sure you weren’t talking about the 80s (probably back then only a few weren’t regional anyway)? LOL! My point isn’t saying Tufts is worse. I am just disputing your claim that in the 90s, Tufts was the better school and somehow “NU has improved a lot”. It was actually the other way around and your opinion is just completely at odd with published data. The PA score reflects more or less peple’s perception (which is often highly regional but the PA can be taken as the average) and NU’s PA assessment is significantly higher than Tufts and people’s perception usually has a lag time. Even in the WSJ ranking with heavy east coast bias (13 of the 15 top prof programs in that rankings are in the east coast), NU is still way ahead. Thank God for US News to show your nonsense. It’s funny to me so far it’s all your opinion against various “mindless” published data/links. I can bring out more and more data if I want and I bet all you got is still just your opinion/“experience”. </p>

<p>I am not saying there is absolute rating. You totally missed the point. I was just telling you don’t call a school overrated <em>on this board</em> simply because it’s not located where you live and therefore, accoarding to you, not “useful and effective” to you. This is not some college advising board for kids in your neighborhood.</p>

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<p>[U.S&lt;/a&gt;. News Rankings Through the Years](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities]U.S”>http://chronicle.com/stats/usnews/index.php?category=Universities)</p>

<p>NU has been ranked in the top 25 every year since 1988 (83 and 85 have only top 15 and top 10). Tufts was ranked in the top 25 from 96 through 99. Before 96, it was grouped in the second “quartile” or “tier”. </p>

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<p>You said you applied to schools 10 years ago? I think you just made up the above statement. Why would you remember what NU’s score was 10 years ago anyway? NU was ranked 9th or 10th!!! I remember its selectivity ranked was 13th and I am also pretty sure its SAT at that time was at least higher than Carnegie Mellon, Colgate, and about the same as Cornell/JHU (I remember it because it’s my school, lol!). I don’t now about those other LACs. Anyway, sorry to burst your bubble.</p>

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<p>1999 data:
[College</a> Confidential](<a href=“http://www.collegeconfidential.com/college_rankings/LF_rank.htm]College”>http://www.collegeconfidential.com/college_rankings/LF_rank.htm)
NU: 1280-1460 (estimated median = 1370)
Colgate: 1190 - 1400 (estimated mean = 1295)</p>

<p>1993 SAT data:
NU: 1320
Colgate: ?
[Office</a> of the Provost, Northwestern University](<a href=“http://www.northwestern.edu/provost/announce/dixon.htm]Office”>http://www.northwestern.edu/provost/announce/dixon.htm)

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<p>It’s unlikely to me Colgate’s 1993 average would be higher than its 1999 average which is lower than NU’s 1993 average. Yet, you said when you applied, its SAT is higher than NU. </p>

<p>You also said in another thread that when you applied, Colgate’s SAT is “higher than Middlebury, Georgetown and within 20 points of Cornell and Penn”. Yet, according to the following:
<a href=“http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000023.pdf[/url]”>http://dpb.cornell.edu/documents/1000023.pdf&lt;/a&gt; (page 8)
the difference between Cornell’s and NU’s SAT is 1 point in 1992 (Cornell>NU) and 2 points in 1997 (NU>Cornell). </p>

<p>So when exactly in the 90s did you apply to college? </p>

<p>FYI, I love investigating things.</p>

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<p>Sam-- first, YOU WIN…NW is the best darn school out there.</p>

<p>I found some data on Colgate’s 1990’s SAT scores:
[F</a>. Admission and Student Aid](<a href=“Offices, Centers, & Institutes | Colgate University”>Offices, Centers, & Institutes | Colgate University)</p>

<p>So, this reports that the “median freshman SAT” for 1993-1994 “actual” (I assume matriculating class) was 1196…btw, looks more like an average to me. One very important note: this score is BEFORE recentering, which occurred in 1999 or so. [Looks like they re-calculated the 1995 score of 1281 to post-recentering equivalent, although the recentered tests did not hit the streets until 1999…the source report is circa 1999.] From my experience, roughly 80 points addition is typical to adjust a pre-recentering SAT M+V score to post recentering (example historic differences in Bowdoin’s & BC’s SAT histories: [Admissions</a> (Bowdoin, Institutional Research)](<a href=“http://academic.bowdoin.edu/ir/data/admissions.shtml]Admissions”>http://academic.bowdoin.edu/ir/data/admissions.shtml) and <a href=“http://www.bc.edu/publications/factbook/meta-elements/pdf/02-03/2002_03_freshman_enrollment_profile_apps.pdf[/url]”>http://www.bc.edu/publications/factbook/meta-elements/pdf/02-03/2002_03_freshman_enrollment_profile_apps.pdf&lt;/a&gt; )</p>

<p>Back to the NW 1993 data that you posted…although YOU WIN, I am a bit suspect of that 1320 number as being adjusted to a post-recentering equivalent…specifically,

…the fact that the phrase “comparable data” was mentioned makes me think that the 1320 was adjusted…if so, then using 80 points, the pre-recentered equivalent would be ~1240, which would then be comparable to Colgate’s 1196. This whole recentering thing makes comparing NU’s & Colgates averages between early 90’s & late 90’s apples and oranges unless all scores are normalized. I like Cornell’s normalizing approach best in that report you posted.</p>

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<p>Thanks, Papa Chicken. That’s a good find! I forgot about that. Now that I think about it, it’s likely the 1320 is an adjusted score. I just went to [Check</a> your “re-centered” SAT Scores](<a href=“2-bit.com - This website is for sale! - 2 bit Resources and Information.”>2-bit.com - This website is for sale! - 2 bit Resources and Information.) and 1320 (recentered) is equivalent to 1260 preadjusted. The difference is more like 60 points, according to this website. Actually the point isn’t comparing NU & Colgate; I was just getting suspicious about gellino’s claim. My intuition just told me something was fishy about it and so far, all these data haven’t supported it.</p>

<p>The recentering happened in 1996. It’s in the first link you just provided. The 95/96 Colgated average is 1281. Note how the difference between that score and the one in 94/95 is 53.</p>

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<p>If you’re going because others think it’s prestigious, you’re probably making a mistake.</p>

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<p>I applied to schools more than 10 ten years and do not remember any specific year’s ranking, which I never really cared much about, but generally thought Northwestern was in the 15-20 range of national universities. My classes’ avg SAT was 1258 and someone on here had posted avg SAT scores for schools ~ 1990 that had Colgate at 1256 and Northwestern at 1253. I think the avg SAT fell in the next few years after my class, but would have thought more of a drop in the 1260 to 1220 level and would doubt it fell as far as 1196, but maybe it did. </p>

<p>I have generally seen that there is about a 80 point difference between recentered SAT and original SAT (breaking down into roughly 70 points verbal, 10 ponts math), although the percentile ranks have gotten lower as well more recently; so that it appears the difference is more about 100-110 points from pre-centered days of the '90s.</p>

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<p>When I was applying they were all considered good schools. Tufts was darned hard to get into.</p>

<p>Here’s some data circa 1971:
Tufts admitted 22%, avg SAT 1260
Colgate admitted 36%, avg. SAT 1256
Northwestern admitted 52%, avg Sat 1255</p>

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<p>1971 was before NU’s Kellogg became world famous.</p>

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<p>That’s true. Out east, Northwestern’s theater programs had some fame (due to alum Richard Benjamin), but otherwise it was basically just a really good regional school; few people I knew would have flown out there for it.</p>

<p>But also I think things were still more “east-o-centric” then. Duke was essentially in the same position.</p>

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<p>I forgot, NU journalism school was also well-known back then. It was known for these specialty areas; U Chicago was much more highly regarded for traditional arts & sciences. But the very highly selective colleges at the time were concentrated in the east, moreso than today.</p>

<p>Yes this is ancient history, but I believe it has lingering effects. The people in my cohort are in important positions today, and many of them have impressions largely formed from when they themselves were in college. You say “where have they been over the last ten years?” and in most cases the answer would be doing their jobs, and not thinking about college rankings. I myself have done hiring over the years, but did not in all that time revisit college rankings.</p>

<p>The only thing that led me to look at these again was when my own kids were applying to colleges. I’m sure that’s true for many others as well. Probably many others don’t even revisit rankings then; they rely on what they believe they “know”, based on their own ancient experience. People don’t really think of these rankings as changing that much, so they think their old impressions are still valid. Even now on CC I read many posts where people claim the rankings don’t change much.</p>

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<p>I would definitely agree with this sentiment of why past perceptions still matter. Being in a hiring position currently, it’s not like I’m cross-referencing college rankings from what they were previously. In addition, during my time of applications, the USNWR ranking existed, but were not at all widely followed in the national conscious as apparently they are now and did not exist at all during your era; so people of the previous generation don’t really know to look for or give much credit to current USNWR rankings. </p>

<p>While Kellogg’s rise in prominence occurred after the 1970’s, it still is not for UG (although thought I had read an article recently that this may change to some extent in the future), so that shouldn’t really cause that much of an incremental draw. It’s not like people are going to UG Dartmouth or Columbia because of Tuck or CBS, which have completely separate curricula and profs with no overlap.</p>

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<p>monydad,</p>

<p>speaking of people in your cohort that hold important positions, 5 of the current fortune 500 CEOs went to northwestern as undergrads. i haven’t computed the exact numbers but a quick glance of the list shows me it’s behind only HYPS and Wisconsin (wisconsin is 3 times larger and has 15). the PA is done by deans of various schools and these are also peple in your cohort and they are the ones that give northwestern an average of 4.4/5.0, below only a handful of prestigious schools. like you said, duke was in the same position and regional back in your days but published data show that duke is highly recruited by top firms now. this shows that the “lingering effect” isn’t as pronounced as some people may think. many of us tend to project our limited experience/perception on others and that’s why i don’t go by “based on my mba class”…etc. i look at published data and listings as more reliable indicators on a national level overall. </p>

<p>speaking of that, gellino, various links and data show that northwestern is highly regarded currently. just because you are or have been in a hiring position and you don’t regard northwestern as highly as, say, tufts or jhu or colgate, doesn’t mean many others don’t. i also want to point out the fact you’ve been living in the east coast all your life has a lot to do with how you perceive schools, to me, with very high regional bias. i came from overseas and lived in the east coast, midwest west before living in cal. i think that helps me to compare schools a little more fairly. live in los angeles now and tons of people in los angeles think usc is a top-10 schools, despite the fact it’s ranked outside 40 by us news not long ago. </p>

<p>just look at following links:

  1. wsj feeder ranking
    <a href=“http://www.classroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf[/url]”>http://www.classroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt; note how duke is #6, depsite the fact it was regional in the 1970s, as monydad said. northwestern is placed comparable to jhu (few spots higher to be exact) while way ahead of tufts, even though most of the 15 programs selected by the survey are in the east coast.</p>

<p>2.
[Undergraduate</a> Recruiting at Vault’s Top Six Consulting Firms: Vault Management and Strategy Consulting Career Information](<a href=“http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=252&article_id=14364421&cat_id=1223]Undergraduate”>http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_page=3&ch_id=252&article_id=14364421&cat_id=1223)
this shows that northwestern ug is extremely well-regarded in the world of management consulting.</p>

<p>gellino,
you claimed northwestern isn’t highly regarded in ib based on your experience, well, look at the following internships obtained by mmss students in the past couple years:
<a href=“http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/students/Internship_Directory.pdf[/url]”>http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/students/Internship_Directory.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
note how many of them were in chicago. this is an impressive list for a small program matriculating 40 students a year and in the past, ususally slightly more than half of them went directly to graduate schools (i.e. not many of them were necessarily aspired to be ibankers). </p>

<p>jp morgan campus schedule:
[JPMorgan</a> - Campus Schedule](<a href=“Careers Home | JPMorgan Chase & Co.”>Careers Home | JPMorgan Chase & Co.)
jp morgan has presentation, full-time interviews at only handful of schools and northwestern is one of them, along with the likes of duke, harvard, yale, cornell, columbia. most of schools you mentioned before, on the other hand, show only “resume drop”. </p>

<p>so just because you haven’t seen many nu grads in nyc in your field doesn’t mean the school isn’t highly regarded, even in the very field you are in.</p>

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<p>fwiw:</p>

<p>regional hiring bias also exists. A former colleague used to recruit for GS and she would unequivocally state that getting Calif college grads to move to NYC was not half as easy as enticing a kid from a NE school to move to the Big Apple; low yield is costly in recruitment terms. I assume the yield from the midwest is also lower than from the NE.</p>

<p>As a result, Wall Street is gonna be staffed with a lot of graduates from east coast schools.</p>

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<p>I wasn’t trying to say that Northwestern wasn’t in the same realm as Colgate, Tufts, JHU. I was disputing that it was much better than those schools, especially in the time period that I was submitting applications.</p>

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<p>Big digression, sorry:</p>

<p>My daughter looked pretty hard at that MMSS program, it would have been perfect for her, academically speaking.</p>

<p>She did not feel that the rest of the university as a whole was a fit for her, based on her personality & interests, so she did not apply. But it’s too bad that same exact program of studies is not available at some place that she felt was a better match for her, socially.</p>

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<p>colgate isn’t an ivy?!/!11</p>

<p>oops.</p>

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<p>monydad,</p>

<p>the only one that i know is kinda close to it is dartmouth’s “math and social sciences”.</p>

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<p>she didn’t like that either; besides, several years too late.</p>

<p>"…the “lingering effect” isn’t as pronounced as some people may think. "</p>

<p>How do you know, maybe they really deserve to be even higher now. Or getting proportionally even more top jobs/ intenships.</p>

<p>I would expect top college administrators, and the people who actually decide where firms recruit, to be keeping up with this rather more than the managers in the trenches who have been completely removed from academia for many years. But these other people do get involved at some point in the process, frequently,so it is hard to say there is no impact, particularly for lateral hires down the road where campus recruiting does not influence who you get to interview.</p>

<p>I don’t believe 5 CEOs is highly statistically significant, one way or the other, do you?</p>

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<p>monydad,
there’s no survey available, so i can’t comment on how the managers think. how do you know whatever you think about northwestern is what they think of it (in the northeast; there’s no question northwestern has huge name in chicago area; here in los angeles, there’s “northwestern mafia” in the entertainment industry)? or are you talking about other schools in general? i’d be very surprised somehow those “old school” managers never change their mind about northwestern undergrad or aren’t aware things do change. i’d think they would have known about kellogg and it would have some trickling effect to affect their perception. i also find it quite strange that a school with one of the best econ departments in the world (the undergrad program is good too with 3 national titles in college fed challenge in the last 3 years) somehow would have its undergrads not highly regarded in the business circle. </p>

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<p>5 out of 500 is a lot, considering how many colleges are in the us. but then most lists aren’t really statistically significant if you are really rigorous about it. so it’s a good list showing what we expected when hyps are the top ones. but it’s statistically insignificant and means nothing when northwestern “just happens” to be another top one.</p>