Is Cornell overrated?

College Search & Lists
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<p>Cornell obviously isn’t one of the better ivies. It is a lower tier ivy, but it is still pretty darn good bc lower tier ivy still is > most other schools on the planet. People who say that it is stupid or something are just nuts! What about people who go to state colleges, then?</p>

<p>Hawkette, great posts. I seem to agree that Duke is where all the stuffs are at. Great academics, great bball, great prestige, great weather, and the list goes on. My older brother graduated from Duke last year and he loved it. Actually, my younger sister, too, will be attending Duke this fall. Too bad I got rejected from Duke last year. lol</p>

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<p>When people think of tiers for ivy league schools, do they mostly think of the non-science and engineering fields?</p>

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<p>Yes. For engineering Princeton and Cornell are at the top of the heap. They are the only ones that can hope to compete with MIT and all of the state schools when it comes to research prowess. Harvard will invest heavily in the field over the next ten years. </p>

<p>For science, add Harvard. Although Penn, Columbia, and Yale have strong departments in certain fields as well.</p>

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<p>Honestly, I don’t understand how a school without a huge D1 athletics scene can have tremendous school spirit. I have always heard that Yale students LOVE LOVE their school and look back incredibly fondly upon their undergraduate years. I just don’t get it. I mean sure, Yalies probably form lifelong friendships and enjoy time with friends but this can theoretically happen at any school. What lasting connection do Yalies have to their alma mater after they graduate other than the fact that its name helped them get good jobs? A lot of parents/students sing the laurels of the residential housing system but I don’t understand how that’s somehow a lot better than a regular dorm arrangement where you can bond with kids. It seems to me that this residential college experience would actually function as a detriment to school spirit because kids become more passionate about their residential colleges than their actual school. I’m just using Yale as an example of a college that is supposed to have an abundance of school spirit without a strong athletics scene.</p>

<p>I think a lot of you just don’t get Hawkette’s points and that’s a shame. A strong athletics program at a school does more for a school than simply provide its students with a few hours of viewing pleasure. It generates revenue for the school, it rallies up the spirits of the students and it generally acts as the lifeblood of the university. I personally think it binds the entire undergraduate student body in a way nothing else can. Sure, you might be interested in theater or art, but can you really talk to any random Joe at your college about it? The answer is no because that’s a specialized thing which only a few people can relate to. The same holds with academics. If you’re at an Ivy League school, you basically have nothing to talk about with someone who doesn’t live in the same residential college as you or has the same classes.</p>

<p>At Duke, I take pleasure in knowing that even if I have NEVER met someone on campus, I can always start out a potential conversation with a reference to our basketball team or whatever sports team is currentlly playing in the season when being introduced by a mutual friend. “Hey did you see that basketball game yesterday…wasn’ that dunk crazy?” Or whatever. My point is you can’t do that at Yale. Even people who know nothing about sports at Duke are knowledgeable about our basketball team in the very least at a competent level.</p>

<p>I know that when I graduate from Duke, I will always have a tangible connection to my alma mater because of our high-profile basketball team. Wherever I am in the world, I will be able to follow how the team’s been doing and share my excitement with other alums. As a Cornell grad, all you will have is memories, even if they are extremely fond ones.</p>

<p>I think that a strong athletics scene is priceless and ties an entire student body together. Have you ever been to a UM football game? I can’t think of anybody who wouldn’t be excited by the sheer magnificence of that scene. Many of you many not comprehend what Hawkette and I are saying now, but when you’re at a bar 15 years for a few drinks 15 years from now with a bunch of coworkers who are all excitingly cheering on their state school/Duke/Stanford athletic teams who are playing in an exciting game and are sharing their crazy tailgating/“high-drama” gametime memories while you have no one to root for/nothing to relate to, then you will really comprehend at an emotional level what we are saying. Because guess what? Your degree doesn’t matter so much now since you have the job already. My deepest sympathies go out to all you LAC and Ivy League students who will never be able to experience this kind of joy, excitement and pride after you graduate for yor alma mater.</p>

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<p>Hawkette -
My post isn’t off the mark at all. This thread is about whether or not Cornell is overrated. Individuals are making an argument that, all else being equal, having a strong athletic program intrinsically makes another school a superior choice for many people.</p>

<p>For many, many others, not having a strong athletic program makes it superior. I would rather my school invest in academic research and programs than massive stadiums. I grew up near the University Michigan. I know the obsessive culture of college athletics. I’ve been to Div 1 games at major schools across the country where I was awash in people putting their arms around me swaying and singing some silly song. </p>

<p>I find it all miserably boring, and so too do many other students. I’m simply speaking for the other side. At the end of the day though, whatever happens on the field has minimal if any bearing on my life (and I did play college varsity athletics, I just can’t fathom why anyone would commit part of their sense of self identity to simply being someone who watches it for more than passing amusement). </p>

<p>I don’t understand how knowing how to do a cheer with twenty thousand other people in face paint improves a university’s rating, which, at the end of this absurd conversation, is what is being debated.</p>

<p>I will ignore your unnecessary insults and denigrations.</p>

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<p>Being a Michigan Alum, I understand what you are saying about how athletics connects the alums to their alma mater. But I can completely understand why someone doesn’t want a school with a big athletic scene. Whether Duke or Michigan will be good this year or not, depends on recruiting, you can almost say that it has nothing to do with you, the alum or the student, however the college memories will last a lifetime. Try to look at the issue from both sides. </p>

<p>But, having a big athletic scene is never a minus.</p>

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<p>Your point falters a bit Applejack, because you’re operating under the assumption that a school can’t have both. </p>

<p>There are many examples of schools that are both prestigious academically. In the USNR Top 20 - Stanford, Duke, Vandy, Northwestern…</p>

<p>Just another form of diversity.</p>

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<p>This kid is doing a serious disservice to his school. But fret not, as not all Dookies are this horrendously insecure and misguided.</p>

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<p>"What does a school’s sports have to do with anything? Check out CalTech’s basketball program. CalTech, therefore, must really suck as a school. Absurd.</p>

<p>"I could not imagine going to a school and actually thinking, “Man throw ball good. School good.” Or, worse, actually judging a school’s worthiness by the quality of tailgates. How old are these children on this board?</p>

<p>"I find it all miserably boring…I just can’t fathom why anyone would commit part of their sense of self identity to simply being someone who watches it for more than passing amusement.</p>

<p>“I don’t understand how knowing how to do a cheer with twenty thousand other people in face paint improves a university’s rating.”</p>

<p>applejack,
The above are all your comments. Your disdain for folks who enjoy the athletic scene at a college (any college) is manifest. If I or someone else were to show the same level of scorn for your preferred non-academic activity, I suspect you would see this discussion a lot differently. Or maybe not as you have yet to see and understand the discussion and the debate and remained locked into your solitary thought that athletic life cannot, must not, be part of a student’s wish list as he/she looks for a college. </p>

<p>As other posts on this thread aptly demonstrate, there are some current Cornell students who don’t share your perspective. Some Cornellians actually enjoy the sporting events at the college. They don’t see that as an institutionally defining activity, but they do actually enjoy attending the games and having some fun. Perhaps not on the scale of some other elite colleges, but sort of like what happens for students at places like Stanford, Duke, Northwestern, Rice, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame, etc. </p>

<p>Athletic life is one aspect of undergraduate life and part of how a student fills his/her 150+ hours per week out of the classroom. Perhaps it has no value to you, but it does to a lot of people, including many students/alumni of several elite universities.</p>

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<p>I am not assuming a school can’t have both good academics and good athletics.</p>

<p>My point is simply that the quality of an athletic program does not determine the academic “rating” of a school, as is the purpose of this discussion and basis of the unfounded slanders that Cornell is the “stupidest Ivy” (something that seems to have been forgotten in all the hairy chest thumping). </p>

<p>Obsessing over the triumphs and failures of sweaty men and women is a personal choice and the lust of admissions to boost applications, just as a solid theatre program is a personal choice. I don’t think anyone says MIT is overrated because they don’t have a domineering football or theatre program. </p>

<p>I’m just saying judge Cornell by what it does offer rather than attacking it for what it does not offer. No one says Harvard sucks because it doesn’t have a top rated Hotel Management school. Don’t judge Cornell because it doesn’t have an overall top rated athletic program (save for perhaps lacrosse and hockey). </p>

<p>If you allow Cornell to be judged by what it is, you will find it provides the same quality education when compared to other top tier programs such as Columbia, UPenn, Dartmouth, and in many disciplines even when compared to the sacred saviors such as Harvard and Yale.</p>

<p>In the niche programs it offers that other top tier schools do not, Cornell is usually regarded as having amongst the best programs in the nation.</p>

<p>Sooooo… Overrated? No, it is not.</p>

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<p>Would you please point us to the offending post(s) that say that a school’s academic rating is determined by its athletic life?</p>

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<p>Hawkette - </p>

<p>All of those quotes started with the word “I” or were somehow clearly my opinion about my life. I could care less what other people do with their time or think about what I do with mine. </p>

<p>SOMEONE’S LOVE OF WATCHING SPORTS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE QUESTION “IS CORNELL OVERRATED?”!!!</p>

<p>You’re hijacking this thread. Please start one about the value of athletics in the college experience if you wish to continue your tiraid.</p>

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<p>The fact that you are talking about the value of watching sports on a thread entitled “Is Cornell Overrated?” is the offense. </p>

<p>I know you’re not making a connection between the athletics and academics. My lunch break’s over. Talk amongst yourselves.</p>

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<p>As someone who disdains a lot of the the beer and peanuts aspect of big-time college sports, I personally didn’t find any of Hawkette’s comments offensive. This was the strongest language that was used:</p>

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<p>I happen to disagree with this assessment. In particular, I think that there is nothing intrinsic to Rice, Wake Forest, or Northwestern athletics’s programs that puts it at a notch above Cornell’s own storied programs and history in lacrosse, hockey, and wrestling. A stronger case could be made for the schools with a stronger basketball or football presence, and maybe Northwestern and Wake Forest will resuscitate its programs in coming years.</p>

<p>But how any of this has to do with whether or not Cornell is over or under rated as an undergraduate institution is beyond me. Rankings matter for two general purposes: 1) For academics and others (employers?) to gauge the quality of work and research that is done at an institution. 2) For students to determine the best place for them to receive an undergraduate institution. </p>

<p>But in the second case, every student has a highly specific set of tastes and preferences that make it fairly impossible to compare schools at the highest end of the spectrum holistically. So we can help to inform decisions on this board, but there should be no hard and fast rules. While one student may choose Duke due to their affinity for basketball, another student may choose Cornell for the research opportunities in the environmental sciences, and another student may choose Northwestern due to its strong journalism offerings. But that’s just the tip of the iceberg.</p>

<p>So Cornell can only be considered over or underrated along narrow lines of consideration – narrow academic fields for instance – or narrow portions of the student experience. Hawkette is free to stress the benefits of athletic experience as much as possible, and we are free to disagree about the quality of the athletic experience at a school like Cornell. But it wouldn’t help to inform the college choice of a student who wanted nothing to do with collegiate athletics.</p>

<p>Applejack jumped into this thread well after it had run its course, and I’m not certain if he read through the thread in its entirety. This includes the cordial discussion between Hawkette and myself about the future of Ivy athletics, the “stupid” calling between a current Cornell student and a high school student, and the jabs between a rabid Duke partisan and myself. I’m fairly certain that Applejack saw that the conversation about Cornell’s ‘overratedness’ had devolved into considerations of athletics, found the entire premise absurd, and made his points. Had he known how the entire conversation originated, I’m not certain we would be at the place where we are now.</p>

<p>Best to all.</p>

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<p>I’ll be honest, "man throw ball good. School good. " is pretty funny</p>

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<p>^hahahahaha</p>

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<p>applejack,
Let me give you a few simple examples. </p>

<p>Student is considering a number of top schools, eg, Cornell, Northwestern, and Vanderbilt. Student is applying to the A&S of each and sees the undergraduate academic experience as pretty much a toss-up. Student is interested in cross country skiing and enjoys doing this in their leisure time. In your opinion, would this be a legitimate way to reach a decision that perhaps Cornell is going to be the best fit?</p>

<p>Or suppose the student really enjoys theater and would enjoy a campus or nearby city that offers this in abundance and at a high level. Cornell’s offering is probably not that great, Vanderbilt’s is probably pretty good and Northwestern’s would be considered very good and Chicago is right down the road. Would using this as a tiebreaker to decide for Northwestern be acceptable to you? </p>

<p>Or, as was the case for much of the discussion here, the student enjoys the Division I athletic scene and the fun that comes with that. Cornell has some good teams, but the overall scene attached to the athletic events is generally pretty small. Northwestern plays in the Big Ten, but it’s really not that competitive across most major sports, although big opponents like U Michigan and Ohio State can draw big, fun crowds. Vanderbilt provides a very fun football scene with SEC football, regularly packs their basketball arena with 14,000+ for home games (including women) and has one of the strongest baseball programs in the country. Of these three colleges, can you see how a student, who enjoys and values the social/athletic life aspect of undergraduate life, might choose Vanderbilt as their college destination?</p>

<p>Undoubtedly, these are simple examples as all three colleges have many sides to them that can appeal to a great variety of students and students’ decisions will rarely turn on a single variable, but the point is the same. Students will often use non-academic considerations in how they compare colleges. In trying to choose the best undergraduate experience for an individual student, I believe that it is absolutely appropriate, even really smart, to do so. Do you?</p>

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<p>I’ll add that of Northwestern, Vanderbilt, and Cornell, Cornell is the only school that can possibly attempt to be everything to everyone…</p>

<p>Cross-country skiing? Check. Go for a trek through the Plantations or the Fingerlakes Trail</p>

<p>Theater? Ithaca offers more theater opportunities per capita than any other city of its size. I generally frequented two-to-three high quality productions a month while at Cornell. Granted, it’s not Oxford or Yale, but I couldn’t snow shoe at Oxford or Yale, either.</p>

<p>Sports? Hockey, lacrosse, and wrestling at Cornell all draw big fun crowds, year-in, year-out. Hockey is always sold out. Lacrosse has two or three “big games” (a la Northwestern’s football) against Syracuse, Princeton, etc. that draw crowds of 8,000+. And if the football team ever climbs out of its hole, rest assured the fans will come. Granted it’s not Vanderbilt, but…</p>

<p>it goes on! </p>

<p>Want an intense MIT-esque research experience? Cornell offers that… just spend all of your time in the world-class engineering labs.</p>

<p>Want a Dartmouth-esque frisbee and beer experience? Cornell offers that. Hell our fraternity system is almost as large as the entire Dartmouth undergraduate body.</p>

<p>Want Yale type secret societies with alums in high level of positions of power in the U.S. government and international corporations? Cornell has that.</p>

<p>Want a RISD type arts experience? Cornell has that – Ithaca is a wonderful arts town, and the architects and fine arts majors are some of the best in the country.</p>

<p>Want a pre-business environment? Well, Cornell has that. We just changed our program from agricultural economics to applied economics and management less than a decade ago but now it is ranked in the top ten in the country.</p>

<p>I could go on, but the point is that Cornell may be the most comprehensive and diverse private university in America. The only thing we don’t have is a beach and palm trees and a huge metropolitan area. It defies stereotype or generalizations.</p>

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<p>That’s a good pitch. </p>

<p>Cornell is a neat place and the undergraduate experience is clearly going to touch on many areas beyond the classroom. That’s important for students to consider as they think about Why Cornell? or some other college. Some might prefer Cornell, some Duke, some Vanderbilt, etc, but while all of these top colleges can offer a great academic pedigree, they don’t offer the same undergraduate experience. It’s up to the aspiring student to learn the differences and see which appeals most to them.</p>

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<p>It works and it doesn’t work… Cornell can easily get beat by any school along any one of those factors: Sports, theater, art, politics, international connections, outdoorsyness, etc. So it can only work for students who want to a little bit of everything. </p>

<p>The biggest thing that has hurt Cornell over the last thirty years has been two things: 1) stagnant New York State funding, and 2) the broad, secular American trends towards larger cities and the South and West.</p>